LeSexyFishorse

After successfully acquiring a Nakagawa in poor shape (see the old thread here Odd Request: Visual estimate of frame size etc. - Bike Forums), I shall now try with the wisdom and experience of this forums members and some elbow grease to restore it. My first goal is to get her rideable so I can see what and where I would like to make modernizations. After that I would like to make her pristine. Some of the issues I have encountered in the initial teardown and cleaning are as follows:
Wheelset:
**see previous post for photos of state of the wheelset**
Yes the wheel is an old Mavic GP4 alloy. Would it be better to
a. Just have the spokes and eyelets replaced and keep the rim?
b. Get a modern wheelset? If I go modern, are modern 7 speeds easy to find? Would you have recommended brands that would be compatible with the Suntour Sprint 9000 indexing. Part of this purchase and build for me is that I would like to experience what it is like to ride old, superbly crafted bicycles. I figured I would start with downtube shifters and older gearing ratios so I would like to keep the RD and 7 speed as much as possible.
I will be cleaning the rims later and will update with photos.
As for the big ring, I run a 50 x 12 on my single speed and on the flat sections of road I ride almost daily that I start spinning out a little. Never used anything above 50t on the front but I figured maybe I should go for close to 56t on the big ring? Would using 53 solve my spinout problem on a 50? Would a 56 give me issues if I keep the smaller ring 42 or go down to 39?
Absolutely right! I meant freewheel. Thank you for showing me the distinction. I added the park tool FR3 & 2 to my cart and will buy them later today when I finish work. I recall the freewheel had 4 tabs but I will check later. Makes sense to buy both for future builds since they are inexpensive. Went to my local bike shop (4 of them), none of them had the tools to remove it unfortunately.

Found an ear picking endoscope online with good reviews for 8 USD. Should arrive at the end of the week. That + duct tape + flashlight might do the trick. An initial check from the seat tube and head tube shows very minimal corrosion. The seat tube inside is painted with the as far as a I can see too.
White vinegar for 24 hours did the trick for a lot of the corrosion. I am using a steel brush to remove the rest. After the vinegar bath I am keeping the parts in WD40 to prevent new rust until I have completed the sanding needed for polishing. Once done I plan to bathe them in high grade turpentine and denatured alcohol (zerofriction cycling chain cleaning method) then grease and reassemble. This is for the RD, FD, brakes and small screws.

Can anyone recommend a good chain for this build? Do they still make 7 speed chains? All I can seem to find are 8 speeds.

Will update any other issues as I get the parts reassembled.

dedhed

6/7/8 speed all use "8 speed" chain. Things start changing at 9 speed.

Most any major manufacturer's chain is fine SRAM, KMC, Shimano, Campy, Wipperman and have a range to fit different budgets. I do recommend one that uses a quick link rather than special pins. I personally typically use a readily available SRAM PC850 mid range chain

daverup 

I don't think replacing the eyelets will be possible. If you could find replacement parts, the actual replacement process would be very difficult without special tools.
Replacing vintage wheels with modern wheels isn't a simple swap. Most modern frames have a much wider hub in the rear.
The easiest swap would be to another vintage wheelset if you can find one.
I am surprised that 4 bike shops did not have a freewheel tool.

shoota 

50x12 SS? Man you should find a pro team to tryout for! Most people are overgeared with a 52-53 x 11 for refence. A 56 sounds insane to me lol.

sovende

Might be interesting to know just what part of the world is home for the OP ? Not continental US but perhaps Hawaii or one of the territories . Prolly elsewhere tho. Pin point location isn’t necessary just general area. Might keep those of us making replies from making suggestions that aren’t possible.
RE: chainring replacements, a 52 or 53 tooth with 130 BCD shouldn’t be too difficult to come by. And yes, IMHO (as well as most other’s) a 56 would be insane!!!
RE: the freewheel, glad that the OP is getting the removal tools. It’s quite possible that the original FW is going to need more than an “overnight soak in white vinegar”! While not for the faint of heart, (neither is THIS project!) complete disassembly of the freewheel may be called for to restore its function. Fresh grease/thick oil and new bearings for sure.

LeSexyFishorse

Could I swap across brands? So for example would Shimano 600 wheel work with the Suntour sprint 9000? For a modern set is it that the spacing will mean the frame will have to be adjusted?
Unfortunately vintage stuff is not really as popular here. First shop was all high end road shop they kinda looked at me from across the counter and just went nope. Second one sent me straight to the third one. Third one said no tools. Fourth one took it in line and said he could do it then 20 min later sent me a text saying no tools lol.

Haha I wish. I guess its difficult when getting up to speed but its not so bad after that. So I kind of just sprint the getting up to speed part to get over with it as fast as possible. NGL I do love watching the velodrome stuff and dreaming of trying it out one day (only one ****** one in my country) and I'm sure the power sports I've done helps. But I don't really ride very long and I'm sure I would die if I did since after my short rides I'm usually spent. I do like it short and intense though. I cant imagine how some riders do 4-6+ hour rides. Or maybe that will change once I experience actual gears.
I am in Southeast Asia. Started checking out some 130 BCD chainrings on the secondary market there are quite a few however a lot of them do look to be on the ****** side. Would you know of any compatible brands that I could get brand new? Does Shimano make ones that will fit on my cranks? I am curious now about the 56. Maybe I will try one down the line on my keirin bike .

I am totally down to completely disassemble and rebuild the freewheel. This project is a learning experience for me so that I know how to service my own equipment in the future. Also I noticed today that it will likely need that level because there is some stickiness to it when I spin it. I am of course comparing it to a track hub so I dont know how that changes things. Do you have any videos or resources on how to do this? Is it applicable to all freewheels or do certain companies freewheels have to be done a certain way?

Some status pictures post 24H vinegar bath. All parts currently in an oil bath to prevent further rusting. Plan to clean and prep them and probably sand some to to get a nice finish. Currently testing out what I need to do to get a mirror shine on my cranks. If that goes well I will see what I can apply it to.
​​​​​​
BB outer parts have corrosion damage. The internal bearings look OK to me, what should I be looking for here?


RD has some corrosion damage as well which I will probably have to sand down if I want to polish. Should be fine given the markings were rubbed off anyway.




Internals of the frame look pretty good to me. Waiting on the ear scope to check out the other areas.


Will probably need to disassemble the pedals as well. There is heavy rust in areas that are hard to reach and it doesnt turn too well.

icemilkcoffee 

3 answers:
1. Yes, an older Shimano 600 freewheel hub will work fine with your Suntour screw-on freewheel, as long as they both have 'english' threads, which they should.
2. The newer style (late 80's +) Shimano hubs use cassettes, so will not work with screw-on freewheels. Now technically the Shimano 7 speed cassette should have the same cog pitch spacing as the Suntour 7 speed Ultra freewheel. So in theory it should index fine with your Accushift shifters/derailleurs.
3. The newer style Shimano 7 speed screw-on freewheels likewise should index fine with your Accushift shifters/derailleurs in theory. The advantage for Shimano freewheel or cassette, is that they have contoured cogs and shift much better than the Suntour freewheels.

daverup 

What is on the outside of the BB doesn't really matter, it's the condition of the bearing surfaces and the ball bearings that matter. So, both cups and the spindle should be checked for pitting.

Some of your other questions might be answered here,
Sheldon Brown

LeSexyFishorse

Whoops did not realize I had posted on the other thread. I replaced the cable and had no change in the problem. Will try replacing the outers since the existing one is a bit short for the suntour and ultegra brakes.

daverup 

If the outer is too short, the problem you are having is the result.

dddd

Accu-7 cog spacing is really a good bit different than Shimano's 7s cog spacing, which would be apparent while trying to adjust the cable tension.

There are still tons of Accu-7 freewheels out there, everything from small to large and I have a bunch.

icemilkcoffee 

According to Sheldon Brown they should have the same cog pitch though:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribsheet-spacing.html

sovende

Well, this is going to be an interesting restoration to follow. As mentioned in an earlier post and maybe on the OP’s other thread that started things off, this is going to be (and already is) kinda spendy! That’s OK tho, it will be a fun project! Sounds like the finished product is going to be a bit of a “Franken-bike” but again OK. I hope that the OP keeps us advised!

LeSexyFishorse

Quick Update:

The parts from Japan have arrived! I could not find Suntour sprint chainrings so I had to settle for the Superbe ones instead. They are a 53, 39 (went with the 39 as suggested since I plan to do some mountain rides) and look almost unused.


The DA 7400 wheelset that I will be using to temporarily replace the Suntour sprint wheelset seems to spin quite well. Do you guys suggest rebuilding them? From what I have read they have a grease port that I could top up the grease with. I have not really looked them up since it just struck me that it might be worth re-greasing them properly. All I can find so far is that they seem to teardown like standard shimano hubs. I am guessing the front should disassemble similar to this ( )? Would the rear be the same? Would you need to re-grease the assembly holding the cassette as well? Can I have the wheels trued before doing this or will the process of taking the hubs apart cause the wheels to lose their true?



I polished up the old Sprint cranks and just noticed that the Superbe crank that came with the delivery is not as buffed as I expected. Were these supposed to be as shiny? Are they worth mirror polishing or will that just ruin them?

Will post more updates soon.

Drillium Dude

EDIT: l misunderstood what was going on the first go-around - leave the newly-arrived Superbe cranks the way they are. They appear NOS; stripping the anodizing and then polishing will only mean continual niggling maintenance to keep them looking good. Leaving them as-is would be best.

Looks like you've got most of the stuff you need to finish the bike; looking forward to more updates.

DD

daverup 

Those 7400 hubs, if running smoothly, probably don't have to be rebuilt. If you feel like they might have dirt or grit in the bearings, then they would need a cleanout.
If you have the hubs with the grease port it should be possible to inject fresh grease if you have a grease gun with a very small tip.
If you want to rebuild one just for fun, I would do the front one.
The rear hub may be more difficult. If it is a cassette hub, then removing the freehub requires a rare special tool. If the cassette can be removed there is supposed to be a small port in the freehub which can be used to inject lubricant. If the freehub is working smoothly, you probably don't need to do that.
Rebuilding hubs should not affect truing the wheel.

icemilkcoffee 

That is an expensive looking pile of parts! BTW Superbe is Suntour's top of the line groupset, so you are not 'settling' for anything!

sovende

I agree, there’s a fair amount of cash tied up in the parts shown in that pic! I’d limit any “fluff & buff” on that Superbe crankset and rings to non-abrasive cleaner and perhaps some sort of wax protectant. Wouldn’t even consider buffing to a mirror finish despite the awesome look on the original crank arm.
RE: the free hub, even if the special removal tool was available, I’d first consider removing any old lube/grease and grimy grit out by flushing from outside to inside with copious amounts of solvent (kerosene, mineral spirits, etc.) then dribbling some high viscosity oil (I use Phil’s Tenacious Oil) into the free hub, again from outside to inside. Since there’s virtually no load on the free hub bearings, they don’t need special grease (IMO).

icemilkcoffee 

BTW if you're doing mountain rides, those nice anodized rims might not be the best option, especially in combination with old single pivot caliper brakes. Anodized rims are more slippery than rims with bare or (best yet) machined side walls. And single pivot brakes don't brake as hard as dual pivot brakes.

LeSexyFishorse

Ok will not touch the Superbe cranks then. Will automotive polish or some sort of clear coat work for the Sprint cranks? They are aluminum but they were pretty pitted and corroded before I sanded them down. Should I do the same for the Superbe cranks?

LeSexyFishorse

The parts were surprisingly inexpensive because I bargain hunted at auction . The Superbe crank was the only one I did not intend to get but could not resist because it was so pretty . Did a sanity check again on the rear hub and it feels smooth so I will skip the re-greasing on that one (also since I don't have the tool). I also decided against using the grease port because I remember reading that you should not mix different greases since they can react negatively to one another. I did repack the front hub which did not spin as smoothly as the rear. The grease inside was starting to get gunky. I used mineral spirits to de-grease and denatured alcohol to neutralize. Then I used Mobil xhp222 marine grease since it was what the hardware store had. I also did not notice any pitting or corroded spots so I think its good to go.



Yes I read that old single pivots were good if you wanted to die. I am curious to see how bad they are so I might just take 1 or 2 trips for the adrenaline rush. I got myself a pair of Zitto cheapo brakes for around 8 USD a pair. They are supposed to be a decent Ultegra/DA copy. Also got a pair of Ultegra BR6800s. Will be trying the Zittos to see how they do as well before switching to the Ultegras after the frame gets painted. I was thinking of learning how to wheelbuild by re-lacing the old Sprint hubs to a pair of either H Plus Son SL42s or TB14s. Local importer has them on sale for around 120 USD and 90 USD respectively for a pair. I am open to suggestions for something along those lines. I am curious to try some 40mm-ish wheels, probably nothing deeper since it can get pretty windy here.

I have begun stretching a pair of Continental gator skins and will be putting everything back together to go for some rides. Regarding the paint, I found a good auto shop that does showroom quality paint. I was thinking of having them do the base color and then adding the details myself. Since I have been unable to get the pantone spec of the original color, I was thinking I might as well just change it to something I like. I would like to get a visual mock up of some color schemes, have you guys used any software that you can recommend?

daverup 

I don't know how difficult it would be for you to get them, but Kool Stop brake pads improve the all weather performance of most rim brakes.

LeSexyFishorse

How big would you say the improvement is? All weather is a big deal since I plan to ride during monsoon season.

daverup 

I don't think anyone has any exact numbers on how much better. There are many reviews online. The salmon pads are generally referred to as noticably or significantly better.

SJX426 

@LeSexyFishorse - Good project. Glad you are not touching the crankset. You have acquired the top-of-the-line Suntour crank and rings, Suntour Superbe Pro. The Pro series is one step above Superbe and are a bit different. The crank set came in both 144 and 130 BCD. I have a set of each. The early Superbe products were a copy of Campagnolo and some parts were interchangeable. You are not stepping down with those parts.


WRT single pivot brake performance. I have a set of Pro "hidden spring" calipers that perform nearly as good as any dual pivot brakes. Shockingly good. I would not be so bold to say all perform equally but mine work exceptionally well. The Koolstop Salmon pads were intended for the rain and do provide good performance.