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Why do I do it ! ? ...... Bertin input required

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Why do I do it ! ? ...... Bertin input required

Old 02-10-22, 08:50 PM
  #1  
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Why do I do it ! ? ...... Bertin input required

I spotted this scruffy Bertin frame on a local auction site .
Last thing I need is another project !
Blurry pictures but the price was right(cheap) and I could see a couple of interesting features .
Unwrapped it today and had no nasty surprises .yay !
Does have a fair old bit of surface rust ,but I have dealt with worse .

Looking for some input on the following :

1... age estimate of the frame ?
2... Is the fork correct ?
3..... Does anyone recognise the decal remnant on fork ?

Vital statistics as follows

English threaded BB and headset
98/120 front and rear spacing
Seat post 26.4 ( need to double check- 27mm too big ,26.2 wobbled)
C to C 59ish mm
Weight - fork and frame with headset 2.8 kg which seems light ?
It certainly feels light to me .
Nervex stamped in bottom bracket shell
CAmpagnolo stamped on rear dropouts
61 ( frame C-T? ) on DS plus four digits _ _ 48
Head badge is the older aluminium one which looks to be original .
No markings on front fork at all apart from decal remnants .
Also has a brazed on lamp bracket thread doohickey .

Thats about it . Will add some pictures of various bits etc .
Any questions , comments welcome .




bb shell . cable guide ?

headbadge

fork decal

fork tip

fork crown

nds dropout marking

strange looking Compared to rest of lug ?

nervex bb shell
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Old 02-10-22, 10:10 PM
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Calling @bertinjim!

I’ve had a couple of Bertins. One was fairly low end, the other fairly high end. Both rode very well.
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Old 02-10-22, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Calling @bertinjim!

I’ve had a couple of Bertins. One was fairly low end, the other fairly high end. Both rode very well.
Thank you for the shoutout to Jim
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Old 02-10-22, 11:59 PM
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Gonna guess the fork is not correct because the dropouts are not Campy and the transitions are completely different when compared to the rear dropouts. The rear dropouts are early Campy 1010As as evidenced by the "G" - earlier font.

That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.

DD
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Old 02-11-22, 06:11 AM
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1simplexnut-

Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.

I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.

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Old 02-11-22, 06:56 AM
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No help here, but I wish you well on the the restoring. That looks to be more work than I want to do. I just got done stripping and refinishing a Fuji Ace that wasn't even close to what you are looking at. My reasons for doing it were to prevent rust from getting worse, my ego wanting to be on a nice looking bike, and most important, because I wanted to. I had done it with charcoal grey, Rustoleum enamel rattle can, but I did a mock up of the black components and the black and white saddle and handlebar tape, the frameset was darker than I liked with those. I bought a can of smoke grey, same paint, and did a couple of thin coats. I like the lighter grey match up with the black/white components better, but the dark would have been fine.

It is now hanging for at least 10days to completely dry/cure before rebuilding. For me, that might be harder than the work.






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Old 02-11-22, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by delbiker1 View Post

….snip….

It is now hanging for at least 10days to completely dry/cure before rebuilding. For me, that might be harder than the work.



A tip on curing: I laid my Lygie in the back of my SUV for most of a hot Texas summer to bake it. Glad I did. Before that was completed it would never pass a fingernail dent test.

Best advice I ever read here, especially for a rattle can.

Of course it’s the wrong time of year for that now!
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Old 02-11-22, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by obuckler View Post
A tip on curing: I laid my Lygie in the back of my SUV for most of a hot Texas summer to bake it. Glad I did. Before that was completed it would never pass a fingernail dent test.

Best advice I ever read here, especially for a rattle can.

Of course it’s the wrong time of year for that now!
I have an all windows enclosed, not heated, rear deck on my house, full southern exposure. If is is full sun and more than 35 deg., it gets pretty warm for 5 to 6 hours, I hang the frameset right in the full sun close to a window. The steel gets warm enough to actually feel it when touched. I also have 2 lamps that put out a fair amount of heat. If it is not sunny, I can put them close enough that they warm up the steel. Certainly not as hot as a sun baked car, but it definitely helps. Y'day, it got up to 80 deg. for awhile. This time of year, I put a fan out there, leave the door into the house open, it blows the warmth into my home. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 02-11-22, 08:41 AM
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I have a few Bertins but none this old.
I agree, an exchanged fork, later graphics.
The paint might be a mix of original, the headtube and respray.
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Old 02-11-22, 09:03 AM
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Car bake the paint = good idea, it works

Likely this frame / bicycle was at some time in England = lamp bracket, that's an 'English thing' = ( Andre Bertin had a longtime trading partner in England = Ron Kitching )

Check the bicycle carefully for any front end damage = ( signs of a front end collision ) = paint missing in a suspicious location on top of top tube, near head tube
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Old 02-11-22, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
1simplexnut-

Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.

I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.

Hi Jim ,

Thanks for confirming for me what I was thinking about age and fork .
Will start fossicking about for a fork to suit .
Would be good to see more detail on the decals on the blue machine please .
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Old 02-11-22, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Gonna guess the fork is not correct because the dropouts are not Campy and the transitions are completely different when compared to the rear dropouts. The rear dropouts are early Campy 1010As as evidenced by the "G" - earlier font.

That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.

DD
hiya - pretty much what I was thinking too
Now to find a replacement fork (rolls eyes )
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Old 02-12-22, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
1simplexnut-

Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.

I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
Hi again Jim ,

HAve been perusing pictures on the net and have realised a couple of things .

My frame is missing the pump pegs . One looks too have rusted away and the other was cut.
No big deal I guess in the grand scheme .

Also I have only one cable pulley on BB shell ( as opposed to two on mikes blue machine )
Would this mean it was originally a 5 speed only ? with no front derailleur .

HAd a good look at the frame and they must have totally stripped frame before painting.
I cant find any signs of another colour suggesting a repaint .
Inside of the BB tube and head tybe show the same red .

Will probably throw some parts on it and ride it first off before going whole hog with paint etc .

All good fun

nice detail on frame
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Old 02-12-22, 02:22 PM
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1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.





Last edited by bertinjim; 02-12-22 at 02:26 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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Old 02-12-22, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.




nice example.
I have owned two from 1972, actually from the same import batch from Hans Ohrt in Beverly Hills.
the first, 59cm stamped, 26.4 post, sold off long ago.
the second a much better size found used on CL is a 56 cm and takes a 26.6 post.
I like this bike much better, in a poor choice of upgraded condition when bought. 27" SC Gentleman rims with the spokes too short, Campag brakes, Thumbshifters! Ape hanger bars... mostly set correct, or near enough now.
Mafac, 3ttt, 700c clinchers now, for its future use a reasonable choice.
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Old 02-13-22, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Hi Jim ,

Thanks for the extra pictures . Very helpful . I see some pinstriping in my future !
had a bit of a scratch around the BB and there are file? marks indicating removal of roller .
I think I have a clamp on cable guide that would get around the issue.

Also love the nails used in the BB to tube area .

Thanks again for the input .


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Old 02-13-22, 07:55 PM
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Glad to have helped. Good luck with the restoration.
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Old 03-03-22, 03:34 PM
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When was that Head Badge last used?
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Old 03-03-22, 03:51 PM
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-----

am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell

was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?

our Jim is sure to know...


-----
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Old 03-03-22, 04:25 PM
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madscrambler-

I think the pressed and painted alloy badges were phased out at the end of the 1960s or into the early 1970s.

juvela-

I have seen examples of Ron Kitching Bertin imports that are BSC. British Bertin/Kitching catalogues don't specify BSC or Metric but based on examples, I would say BSC was the norm.
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Old 03-03-22, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell

was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?

our Jim is sure to know...


-----
Is he sure it is BSC and not Swiss?
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Old 03-03-22, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell

was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?

our Jim is sure to know...


-----
hiho - will double check and report back :
I know my somewhat later Bertin is bsc


1978
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Old 03-04-22, 10:17 PM
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For the curious ,
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
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Old 03-05-22, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 1simplexnut View Post
For the curious ,
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
-----

thank you

as regards incomplete place setting -

you might wish to post a WTB notice in the C&V Marketplace subforum

remember to include minimum steerer length needed


-----
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Old 03-06-22, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Is he sure it is BSC and not Swiss?
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

thank you

as regards incomplete place setting -

you might wish to post a WTB notice in the C&V Marketplace subforum

remember to include minimum steerer length needed


-----
Thats food for thought !
Why didnt I fork in think of it
thanks for the humour.
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