Why do I do it ! ? ...... Bertin input required
02-10-22, 08:50 PM
#1
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Thread Starter
Why do I do it ! ? ...... Bertin input required
I spotted this scruffy Bertin frame on a local auction site .
Last thing I need is another project !
Blurry pictures but the price was right(cheap) and I could see a couple of interesting features .
Unwrapped it today and had no nasty surprises .yay !
Does have a fair old bit of surface rust ,but I have dealt with worse .
Looking for some input on the following :
1... age estimate of the frame ?
2... Is the fork correct ?
3..... Does anyone recognise the decal remnant on fork ?
Vital statistics as follows
English threaded BB and headset
98/120 front and rear spacing
Seat post 26.4 ( need to double check- 27mm too big ,26.2 wobbled)
C to C 59ish mm
Weight - fork and frame with headset 2.8 kg which seems light ?
It certainly feels light to me .
Nervex stamped in bottom bracket shell
CAmpagnolo stamped on rear dropouts
61 ( frame C-T? ) on DS plus four digits _ _ 48
Head badge is the older aluminium one which looks to be original .
No markings on front fork at all apart from decal remnants .
Also has a brazed on lamp bracket thread doohickey .
Thats about it . Will add some pictures of various bits etc .
Any questions , comments welcome .
bb shell . cable guide ?
headbadge
fork decal
fork tip
fork crown
nds dropout marking
strange looking Compared to rest of lug ?
nervex bb shell
Last thing I need is another project !
Blurry pictures but the price was right(cheap) and I could see a couple of interesting features .
Unwrapped it today and had no nasty surprises .yay !
Does have a fair old bit of surface rust ,but I have dealt with worse .
Looking for some input on the following :
1... age estimate of the frame ?
2... Is the fork correct ?
3..... Does anyone recognise the decal remnant on fork ?
Vital statistics as follows
English threaded BB and headset
98/120 front and rear spacing
Seat post 26.4 ( need to double check- 27mm too big ,26.2 wobbled)
C to C 59ish mm
Weight - fork and frame with headset 2.8 kg which seems light ?
It certainly feels light to me .
Nervex stamped in bottom bracket shell
CAmpagnolo stamped on rear dropouts
61 ( frame C-T? ) on DS plus four digits _ _ 48
Head badge is the older aluminium one which looks to be original .
No markings on front fork at all apart from decal remnants .
Also has a brazed on lamp bracket thread doohickey .
Thats about it . Will add some pictures of various bits etc .
Any questions , comments welcome .
bb shell . cable guide ?
headbadge
fork decal
fork tip
fork crown
nds dropout marking
strange looking Compared to rest of lug ?
nervex bb shell
02-10-22, 10:10 PM
#2
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Calling @bertinjim!
I’ve had a couple of Bertins. One was fairly low end, the other fairly high end. Both rode very well.
I’ve had a couple of Bertins. One was fairly low end, the other fairly high end. Both rode very well.
02-10-22, 11:59 PM
#4
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Gonna guess the fork is not correct because the dropouts are not Campy and the transitions are completely different when compared to the rear dropouts. The rear dropouts are early Campy 1010As as evidenced by the "G" - earlier font.
That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.
DD
That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.
DD
Last edited by Drillium Dude; 02-11-22 at 12:50 AM.
02-11-22, 06:11 AM
#5
Senior Member
1simplexnut-
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
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02-11-22, 06:56 AM
#6
Mother Nature's Son
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No help here, but I wish you well on the the restoring. That looks to be more work than I want to do. I just got done stripping and refinishing a Fuji Ace that wasn't even close to what you are looking at. My reasons for doing it were to prevent rust from getting worse, my ego wanting to be on a nice looking bike, and most important, because I wanted to. I had done it with charcoal grey, Rustoleum enamel rattle can, but I did a mock up of the black components and the black and white saddle and handlebar tape, the frameset was darker than I liked with those. I bought a can of smoke grey, same paint, and did a couple of thin coats. I like the lighter grey match up with the black/white components better, but the dark would have been fine.
It is now hanging for at least 10days to completely dry/cure before rebuilding. For me, that might be harder than the work.
It is now hanging for at least 10days to completely dry/cure before rebuilding. For me, that might be harder than the work.
Last edited by delbiker1; 02-11-22 at 07:09 AM.
02-11-22, 07:40 AM
#7
Senior Member
Originally Posted by delbiker1
….snip….
It is now hanging for at least 10days to completely dry/cure before rebuilding. For me, that might be harder than the work.
Best advice I ever read here, especially for a rattle can.
Of course it’s the wrong time of year for that now!
02-11-22, 07:57 AM
#8
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Originally Posted by obuckler
A tip on curing: I laid my Lygie in the back of my SUV for most of a hot Texas summer to bake it. Glad I did. Before that was completed it would never pass a fingernail dent test.
Best advice I ever read here, especially for a rattle can.
Of course it’s the wrong time of year for that now!
Best advice I ever read here, especially for a rattle can.
Of course it’s the wrong time of year for that now!
02-11-22, 08:41 AM
#9
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I have a few Bertins but none this old.
I agree, an exchanged fork, later graphics.
The paint might be a mix of original, the headtube and respray.
I agree, an exchanged fork, later graphics.
The paint might be a mix of original, the headtube and respray.
02-11-22, 09:03 AM
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Car bake the paint = good idea, it works
Likely this frame / bicycle was at some time in England = lamp bracket, that's an 'English thing' = ( Andre Bertin had a longtime trading partner in England = Ron Kitching )
Check the bicycle carefully for any front end damage = ( signs of a front end collision ) = paint missing in a suspicious location on top of top tube, near head tube
Likely this frame / bicycle was at some time in England = lamp bracket, that's an 'English thing' = ( Andre Bertin had a longtime trading partner in England = Ron Kitching )
Check the bicycle carefully for any front end damage = ( signs of a front end collision ) = paint missing in a suspicious location on top of top tube, near head tube
02-11-22, 01:04 PM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by bertinjim
1simplexnut-
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
Thanks for confirming for me what I was thinking about age and fork .
Will start fossicking about for a fork to suit .
Would be good to see more detail on the decals on the blue machine please .
02-11-22, 01:06 PM
#12
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
Gonna guess the fork is not correct because the dropouts are not Campy and the transitions are completely different when compared to the rear dropouts. The rear dropouts are early Campy 1010As as evidenced by the "G" - earlier font.
That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.
DD
That's all I can offer from the details provided and considering my limited knowledge regarding French bikes/frames.
DD
Now to find a replacement fork (rolls eyes )
02-12-22, 12:14 AM
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by bertinjim
1simplexnut-
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
Your Bertin looks to be from the middle to late 60s based on the BB cable roller guide and the stay ends and caps. As Drillium Dude pointed out, the fork does not match and appears to be British in origin based on the lamp boss braze-on and the fork crown style. The actual fork should be either Reynolds 531 or Durifort with forged Campy dropouts and a Vagner DP forged crown. The 61 on the rear dropout is frame size measured from center to top and the 4 digit sequence is the serial number which denotes production order. The frame could be a C 37 or a C 35. The 37 would be full 531 throughout and the 35 would have a 531 main frame and Durifort elsewhere. The decals are wrong for the period being from the early 70s.
I have included a picture of another New Zealand C 37 in its original colour and decal configuration as a bit of a reference. If you need more detailed photos for the restoration, please let me know.
HAve been perusing pictures on the net and have realised a couple of things .
My frame is missing the pump pegs . One looks too have rusted away and the other was cut.
No big deal I guess in the grand scheme .
Also I have only one cable pulley on BB shell ( as opposed to two on mikes blue machine )
Would this mean it was originally a 5 speed only ? with no front derailleur .
HAd a good look at the frame and they must have totally stripped frame before painting.
I cant find any signs of another colour suggesting a repaint .
Inside of the BB tube and head tybe show the same red .
Will probably throw some parts on it and ride it first off before going whole hog with paint etc .
All good fun
nice detail on frame
02-12-22, 02:22 PM
#14
Senior Member
1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Last edited by bertinjim; 02-12-22 at 02:26 PM. Reason: spelling correction
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02-12-22, 04:37 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by bertinjim
1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
I have owned two from 1972, actually from the same import batch from Hans Ohrt in Beverly Hills.
the first, 59cm stamped, 26.4 post, sold off long ago.
the second a much better size found used on CL is a 56 cm and takes a 26.6 post.
I like this bike much better, in a poor choice of upgraded condition when bought. 27" SC Gentleman rims with the spokes too short, Campag brakes, Thumbshifters! Ape hanger bars... mostly set correct, or near enough now.
Mafac, 3ttt, 700c clinchers now, for its future use a reasonable choice.
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02-13-22, 07:46 PM
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by bertinjim
1simplexnut-
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Your C 37 would have had two roller cable guides. The non-drive would have been removed when the pump pegs were butchered. A build up and test ride would be good but I predict you will like it. A full re-spray resto would be pricey and it's best to know it's a keeper before investing big time. I've added some further photos to show decal and pinstripe locations. One last thing - the seatpost diameter is 26.4 mm.
Thanks for the extra pictures . Very helpful . I see some pinstriping in my future !
had a bit of a scratch around the BB and there are file? marks indicating removal of roller .
I think I have a clamp on cable guide that would get around the issue.
Also love the nails used in the BB to tube area .
Thanks again for the input .
02-13-22, 07:55 PM
#17
Senior Member
Glad to have helped. Good luck with the restoration.
03-03-22, 03:34 PM
#18
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When was that Head Badge last used?
03-03-22, 03:51 PM
#19
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-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
03-03-22, 04:25 PM
#20
Senior Member
madscrambler-
I think the pressed and painted alloy badges were phased out at the end of the 1960s or into the early 1970s.
juvela-
I have seen examples of Ron Kitching Bertin imports that are BSC. British Bertin/Kitching catalogues don't specify BSC or Metric but based on examples, I would say BSC was the norm.
I think the pressed and painted alloy badges were phased out at the end of the 1960s or into the early 1970s.
juvela-
I have seen examples of Ron Kitching Bertin imports that are BSC. British Bertin/Kitching catalogues don't specify BSC or Metric but based on examples, I would say BSC was the norm.
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03-03-22, 07:28 PM
#21
feros ferio
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
03-03-22, 09:06 PM
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by juvela
-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
am puzzled by the BSC threaded shell
was this something Andy did for Ronnie?/others in the anglophone world?
our Jim is sure to know...
-----
I know my somewhat later Bertin is bsc
1978
03-04-22, 10:17 PM
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
For the curious ,
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
03-05-22, 07:27 AM
#24
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Originally Posted by 1simplexnut
For the curious ,
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
It is BSC bottom bracket thread .
Still on the hunt for a suitable fork . ho hum
thank you
as regards incomplete place setting -
you might wish to post a WTB notice in the C&V Marketplace subforum
remember to include minimum steerer length needed
-----
03-06-22, 02:02 PM
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by John E
Is he sure it is BSC and not Swiss?
Originally Posted by juvela
-----
thank you
as regards incomplete place setting -
you might wish to post a WTB notice in the C&V Marketplace subforum
remember to include minimum steerer length needed
-----
thank you
as regards incomplete place setting -
you might wish to post a WTB notice in the C&V Marketplace subforum
remember to include minimum steerer length needed
-----
Why didnt I fork in think of it
thanks for the humour.
