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Campy QR low flange Record hub spacing questions

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Campy QR low flange Record hub spacing questions

Old 02-11-22, 12:22 PM
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67Carlton 
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Campy QR low flange Record hub spacing questions

Hi all,

So, a couple of questions from someone still new to nuances of C&V component evolution. I picked up two sets of QR low flange Record hubs the other day. Arriving home, I measured them up and both front hubs have an OLD of 100 as expected. However, the rear hubs measure with calipers as follows:

Set A rear (28h) – 134.3 OLD / axle length of 141.5

Set B rear (32h) – 128.5 OLD / axle length of 132.3

The Velobase entry suggests these came in rear spacing of 120 or 126. This BF thread suggests “the nominal length of the axle is 11mm more than the Over-Locknut-Distance (OLD), or 131mm for a 5-spd and 137 for a 6-spd. That's 5mm for the thickness of each DO plus 0.5mm on each side to fit under the skewer acorn. But the axle can be shorter as long as you have at least a few threads (i.e. a few mm) inserted into the DO…”

None of these standard measurements seem to correspond to the hubs I have. I’m thinking of having at least one set built with a new set of rims, possibly the Pacenti Brevet, and I have been assuming (dangerous, I know!) that all of this can be adjusted when going to build the wheels, but is there any explanation for how things are currently set up and should I anticipate additional costs to build them for a 5-speed, 120 spaced build (e.g. replacing QR skewers or otherwise)?
Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-11-22, 12:39 PM
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Someone did their own mods. Not unusual if one wants to expand their gear choices. If you are going to go "back" to 5 speed, you may need to replace the axle. Or if you are handy, cut an axle down.
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Old 02-11-22, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 67Carlton View Post
Hi all,

Set A rear (28h) – 134.3 OLD / axle length of 141.5

Set B rear (32h) – 128.5 OLD / axle length of 132.3

The Velobase entry suggests these came in rear spacing of 120 or 126. This BF thread suggests “the nominal length of the axle is 11mm more than the Over-Locknut-Distance (OLD), or 131mm for a 5-spd and 137 for a 6-spd. That's 5mm for the thickness of each DO plus 0.5mm on each side to fit under the skewer acorn. But the axle can be shorter as long as you have at least a few threads (i.e. a few mm) inserted into the DO…”

...build them for a 5-speed, 120 spaced build (e.g. replacing QR skewers or otherwise)?
Thanks in advance!
With that guidance, it seems like you should be fine with the 32h hub, since the 132mm axle would allow an OLD of 121mm. You'll just need to remove the spacers (or use narrower ones) to get the OLD down to 121mm. For the QR, give it a try in your 120mm frame without the wheel, and if you can compress the dropouts, I suspect you'll be ok.
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Old 02-11-22, 03:24 PM
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The skewer capacity might arise as an issue... Maybe. Or, just excess extending beyond, place a valve adapter on it.
Trouble is service station compressors are useless now.
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Old 02-11-22, 09:15 PM
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Thanks everyone! It does seem like the 132.3mm axle could be close enough for a 120 spacing as suggested by noobinsf , though would guess the hub body might need to be re-centered on the axle. I'll confirm the width of the spacers and see if I can't get from 128.5 to close to 120 by removing a few. I can certainly do that and could trim the axle if necessary as suggested by CV-6 , but I'm not versed in the dark arts, so will likely be seeking professional assistance on the wheel build and would hope a good builder here on the front range could adjust the positioning of the hub on the axle as a part of that process. For the skewer, I now see the Record skewer nut allows the skewer to thread through and extend beyond the nut. Hopefully that allows for a decent compression across a range of sizes so long as I don't have too much sticking out! repechage a valve adapter or cover is a good suggestion.

Out of curiosity, what would the 134.3 OLD have been used for? I was under the impression that rear spacing above 126mm generally resulted in moving to a 8/9/10 speed cassette rather than the threaded freewheel the Record hub is set up for.
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Old 02-12-22, 07:28 AM
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You want 4 to 5mm on either side of the axle if your dropouts are good thicker forged quality (not flat stamped steel). Work backwards from there to see what you can do. Looks like they added a bunch of spacers.
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Old 02-12-22, 06:20 PM
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Don't firget the hub spacing is a two-step dance and the first step has to be setting the freewheel space or right-side stickout. Called "Dimension A" by Sutherland's Handbook:

(Sutherland's drawing used without permission, please don't sue me. Everyone go out and buy a Sutherland's — it's indispensible.)

Set this dimension to 30 mm for a 5-speed or 35 mm for a full-width 6-speed (narrow 7), and see if it's enough for your chain to not rub on the bottom of the seatstay. Freewheel brands from the 5- and 6-speed era vary a bit in where they put the cogs relative to the dropout, but most are within a fairly narrow range, close to interchangeable. Frames made "wrong", like with domed stay ends that intrude on this space, can be improved by removing metal — grinding or filing off some of the offending seatstay dome. But many people prefer to increase the stickout (Dimension A) rather than modify the frame.

Just remember that adding more stickout on the right increases wheel dish, so it's weakening your wheel, making it more likely to break spokes or go out of true. Also slightly increases the tendency to bend or break the hub axle. A small increase in dish from a mm or two of extra stickout doesn't kill the wheel strength though, it's not that sensitive. You have my permission to increase Dimension A as needed, just don't leave any extra space beyond the minimum needed for chain clearance.

It's the clearance while actually shifting that's your bottleneck, because a chain that clears while riding on the small sprocket will rise up from that position while shifting to the second cog. Also remember the size of the small cog matters, and to a lesser degree, the size of the second cog matters too. If the chain clears on a 13t it might hit with a 14t, and a 14-15 combo is less likely to hit than a 14-17 touring combo. So test with the biggest cogs you're likely to use, shifting bith up and down. It can be hard to tell if it's hitting lightly since it's so instantaneous, but IMHO hitting just slightly while shifting might be the perfect situation, no extra space there. Unless you're overly concerned with getting a scratch in the paint, and I say any frame made "wrong" (seatstay not trimmed for clearance) deserves to be scratched there. As punishment! Just make sure it can never jam or cause a rough shift. The chain inhabits a "probability cloud" while shifting, so not every shift will have the chain follow the exact same path. Shift a bunch of times to confirm clearance, and don't be surprised if it acts different on the road than in the stand.

Another reason to keep Dimension A at 30 mm (5-sp) is to have all your wheels interchangeable without having to readjust the derailer travel stop screws. BITD this was essential for being able to get a spare wheel in a race, though of course that's moot now since almost no one will use a 5-speed wheel for racing, and NO ONE is going to give you a spare wheel that fits. But if your personal stable includes more than one 5-speed bike, then being able to swap wheels is nice.

There were some differences in Dimension A based on national borders BITD. Italians were the first to start minimizing that dimension to minimize wheel dish, so Italian frames are more likely to have proper clearance for a 30 mm stickout, further back in time. 1940s maybe? British and French frames were more likely to have intruding domes that required up to 34 mm stickout for a 5-speed FW, as late as mid- to late-'70s, and so French hubs like Normandy or Maxicar have the extra stickout, and thus make a slightly weaker wheel. Take the extra space out if you can, if your frame has room for it, unless you're fanatical about keeping everything Original.

Because of the market dominance of Campy back then, lots of other makers came out with hubs with a 30 or 31 mm Dimension A, and some (e.g. Phil Wood) can't even be adjusted with a spacer, so grinding the frame is your only choice.

Mark B

Last edited by bulgie; 02-12-22 at 06:31 PM.
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