Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

What level of sacrilege? Refurb vs restoration

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

What level of sacrilege? Refurb vs restoration

Old 02-26-22, 05:54 PM
  #1  
sovende
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Western WI (USA)
Posts: 518

Bikes: TNTL (Too numerous to list)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 163 Post(s)
Liked 134 Times in 104 Posts
What level of sacrilege? Refurb vs restoration

My current Winter projects are a couple of early (as in couldn’t be earlier) 80s C/V bikes. One is a Schwinn LeTour and the other a Lotus Excelle. (Perhaps some have read my related threads.) With almost no exceptions, I have all of the OEM components, tires and tubes being the main exceptions, for both bikes. While neither are true “restorations” I am trying to keep them pretty much true to their period. My question is what’s the level of sacrilege if I use black cable housing (I have a bunch of NOS on hand) to replace the OEM gray on one bike and white on the other bike? Neither are high end bikes nor are they entry level models. In the same thought process, the OEM cables for both bikes are in excellent condition, i.e. no rust or fraying. I do have new replacement cables (just arrived today) that could just as easily be used on other bikes in my project queue. Ya, I know, kind of a “first world problem” but I’d still like to know. Both bikes are likely to be sold (the Lotus MAY stay in the family) but clearly not as “clunkers”. Thanks in advance.
sovende is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 06:00 PM
  #2  
jamesdak 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 7,582

Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,Klein Quantum II

Mentioned: 135 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1923 Post(s)
Liked 2,108 Times in 970 Posts
I see no issue at all. I tend to go with whatever color housing looks best to me.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
jamesdak is offline  
Likes For jamesdak:
Old 02-26-22, 06:03 PM
  #3  
John E
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,020

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1170 Post(s)
Liked 711 Times in 500 Posts
Cable housing is a consumable. Don't worry about changing its look. Same with handlebar tape and brake pads.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 06:11 PM
  #4  
merziac
Senior Member
 
merziac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 10,157

Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2

Mentioned: 203 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3149 Post(s)
Liked 2,923 Times in 1,848 Posts
Originally Posted by sovende View Post
My current Winter projects are a couple of early (as in couldn’t be earlier) 80s C/V bikes. One is a Schwinn LeTour and the other a Lotus Excelle. (Perhaps some have read my related threads.) With almost no exceptions, I have all of the OEM components, tires and tubes being the main exceptions, for both bikes. While neither are true “restorations” I am trying to keep them pretty much true to their period. My question is what’s the level of sacrilege if I use black cable housing (I have a bunch of NOS on hand) to replace the OEM gray on one bike and white on the other bike? Neither are high end bikes nor are they entry level models. In the same thought process, the OEM cables for both bikes are in excellent condition, i.e. no rust or fraying. I do have new replacement cables (just arrived today) that could just as easily be used on other bikes in my project queue. Ya, I know, kind of a “first world problem” but I’d still like to know. Both bikes are likely to be sold (the Lotus MAY stay in the family) but clearly not as “clunkers”. Thanks in advance.
As the others said, they are consumables so change away, you can always keep the originals, just in case.
merziac is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 06:14 PM
  #5  
SurferRosa
Señor Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 5,636

Bikes: Old school lightweights

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2343 Post(s)
Liked 3,056 Times in 1,659 Posts
sacrilege level = 0
SurferRosa is offline  
Likes For SurferRosa:
Old 02-26-22, 06:23 PM
  #6  
Chuck M 
Butted Hi-Tensile
 
Chuck M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 997

Bikes: Hi-Ten bike boomers, a Trek Domane and some projects

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 327 Post(s)
Liked 801 Times in 411 Posts
My bikes are not collectors items but my preference it to keep them as original as I can. But this is your bike, do what shifts your gears. I'm of the camp that it is better these bikes stay on the road and are used than tossed. I don't understand why people want to cut off braze-ons or derailleur hangers, even on bike boom bikes. But I also understand it isn't any of my business.
__________________
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels." -- Heinz Stücke

Chuck M is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 06:33 PM
  #7  
zandoval 
Senior Member
 
zandoval's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 3,128

Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 662 Times in 443 Posts
I think the term you are looking for is correct for Wall Hanger v/s Ride-able, and please don't get insulted. I threw in the towel years ago when period correct components started to decrease in availability. And increase to a price far exceeding my procurement ability.

On my last two French bike builds the only thing period and French was the frames... Ha

In a bike that's being ridden the sacrilege level is very very low and even people who would be quick to point out flaws are completely understanding. Because it is being ridden...
__________________
No matter where your at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
zandoval is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 06:36 PM
  #8  
BFisher
Senior Member
 
BFisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,188
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 704 Post(s)
Liked 1,625 Times in 781 Posts
Personally, I almost never care about originality. I can see doing so if the bike is truly rare (not eBay "rare"), very old, or has some sort of significant provenance. Otherwise, build as desired or with what's available.

They're just bikes
BFisher is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 07:32 PM
  #9  
icemilkcoffee 
Senior Member
 
icemilkcoffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 701 Post(s)
Liked 544 Times in 329 Posts
Cable housings were available in many different colors back in the 80's too. So I see no problem with changing to a different color housing.
icemilkcoffee is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 07:42 PM
  #10  
iab
Senior Member
 
iab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 11,292
Mentioned: 176 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2478 Post(s)
Liked 2,141 Times in 899 Posts
As already mentioned by others, if I have an original part but prefer a different one, I keep the original for the next owner. And sometimes if I take the bike to the show, I'll put the original bit back on (many times the saddle).
iab is offline  
Likes For iab:
Old 02-26-22, 08:06 PM
  #11  
Kabuki12
Senior Member
 
Kabuki12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ventura County ,California
Posts: 2,240

Bikes: 71 Stella,72 Mondia Special,72 ItalVega Grand Rallye, 73 Windsor Pro,75 Colnago Super,76 Kabuki DF,77 Raleigh Comp.GS,78 Raleigh Pro,80 Moto Gran Sprint,82 Medici Pro Strada

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 519 Post(s)
Liked 1,086 Times in 647 Posts
Just build it , ride it, enjoy! It’s your bike and the more YOU like it, the more you will ride it. Pedal on
Kabuki12 is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 08:33 PM
  #12  
randyjawa 
Senior Member
 
randyjawa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada - burrrrr!
Posts: 11,271

Bikes: 1958 Rabeneick 120D, 1968 Legnano Gran Premio, 196? Torpado Professional, 2000 Marinoni Piuma

Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1245 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,302 Times in 749 Posts
I try to rebuild my vintage bikes as close to original as I can. Basically, I work with a "period correct and price point achievable" philosophy. When it comes to cables and handlebar tape, I try to use something affordable and that does NOT stand out. Black is, generally, my choice for both (white would also be appropriate for my long gone PX10 but tends to get dirty really fast)...


However, for my really old machines, red cloth seems, to me, to be period and model correct and, even though it does stand out it also seems to fit. Cable casings are still black and, just in case it might be helpful, I prefer nylon lined casings and Teflon coated cables...



The point is, unless you are building a fully bang on perfect restoration, go with what ever blows you kilt up and does so for for $$$ that you can afford. Here is a closer look at the casings and cables that I use. Also, when I finally find an appropriate head set, that modern thing will go. And, at that time, I intend to install a beautiful German steering stem that a couple of kind Bike Forums members were kind enough to send my way. The point to this first picture below is to let you know that no matter how much I want a bike to be 100% perfect, I would never keep it off of the road just because I did not have every perfect part to complete the bike...

__________________
"98% of the bikes I buy are projects".
randyjawa is offline  
Likes For randyjawa:
Old 02-26-22, 10:05 PM
  #13  
bamboobike4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 817
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked 378 Times in 233 Posts
I never did worry about that stuff. There are restorations, and there are not.

Try telling a triathlete that OEM is required, or a Monday night shootout veteran.

I get it, though. We do what we like, appreciate the other ways…I go to shows to see bikes I know I lack the patience to even begin.

One of my bikes is #2 of 2. The builder built 2. (Under his name). #1 has been restored with OEM paint by the OEM painter, and the original 2x6 Super Record. #2 came to me with 6400, went to 7700, briefly at 9000, and is now “settled” at 6800. Builder likes both, happy to see them being ridden.

My most valuable bike was “sacrilege” from the second the paint dried. Once a group was chosen, never, ever intended to be ridden, it was over. (1985 lugs, 2015 frame build, C-Record group with 11-speed cassette.)

Sacrilege, if there is such a thing, with bikes? They are bikes.

But I totally get it. It’s primal.

Last edited by bamboobike4; 02-27-22 at 08:39 AM.
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 10:50 PM
  #14  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,651

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5763 Post(s)
Liked 5,981 Times in 3,074 Posts
Originally Posted by iab View Post
As already mentioned by others, if I have an original part but prefer a different one, I keep the original for the next owner. And sometimes if I take the bike to the show, I'll put the original bit back on (many times the saddle).
Bingo. For my C&V bikes that came with original parts I can't use, I keep a box for each one of 'take-offs'. Like my Schwinn Circuit, which is a smaller frame than I'm used to so I had to get a longer seatpost, and stem, plus a wider handlebar (can't do 40s), but I have the original Cinelli stem and bars, and SR seatpost in a box labeled "Schwinn Circuit Takeoffs, so if ever I sell it, I could rebuild it pretty quickly to Original.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Old 02-26-22, 10:54 PM
  #15  
genejockey 
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
 
genejockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,651

Bikes: Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace

Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5763 Post(s)
Liked 5,981 Times in 3,074 Posts
Also, unless there really ARE C&V Police, the only one whose opinion matters in building up a bike is your own. I rebuild my bikes to ride, so I don't feel compelled to use the original saddle and bars, for example if they don't fit me. I use modern cables and cable housing, admittedly in original colors, but I don't obsess about using chromed ferrules. And I don't use that thin bar tape.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."

"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
genejockey is offline  
Likes For genejockey:
Old 02-27-22, 12:33 AM
  #16  
C9H13N 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Seattle
Posts: 288

Bikes: Davidson ’81

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Liked 127 Times in 67 Posts
There are very few situations I can imagine in which re-using 40 year old housing is the right answer.
C9H13N is offline  
Likes For C9H13N:
Old 02-27-22, 07:02 AM
  #17  
SJX426 
Senior Member
 
SJX426's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 8,535

Bikes: '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8

Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1224 Post(s)
Liked 1,196 Times in 659 Posts
As pointed out, they are consumables. Performance is another driver. I recognize the limitations of 40 YO designs and decide if I can live with that performance. There are ways to improve performance but each effort has it limitations before jumping to more modern alternatives, i.e. single vs double pivot brakes.
Because cable housings for shifting have changed, the availability of period correct like examples are bit hard to find.
\For my Colnago, which I rarely ride because it is a bit small, I went not only for period correct but parts from that time period, such as the handlebar tape, pedals, brake and shift housing. Brook saddles are timeless. The chain, may be older. The newer items are the brake pads and tires.

1983 Colnago Superissimo on Flickr
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
SJX426 is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 07:37 AM
  #18  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 15,667
Mentioned: 402 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2955 Post(s)
Liked 3,677 Times in 1,646 Posts
I think the question of originality depends a lot on the rarity and age of the bikes in question. For the two bikes the OP asks about, which he intends to flip, nothing special or rare and buyers likely would not care.
nlerner is offline  
Likes For nlerner:
Old 02-27-22, 08:48 AM
  #19  
bamboobike4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 817
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 274 Post(s)
Liked 378 Times in 233 Posts
Word games….

I’m wondering if the more sinister uses of “sacrilege,” over time, implied the sacrilegious activity was a threat to dogma, society or power? Or was calling something “sacrilege” an implied threat all its own?

Many words today are being taken completely out of context or original meaning as various groups try to distort the meaning to fit their agendas.

Language is cool.
bamboobike4 is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 08:58 AM
  #20  
Jeff Neese
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 647
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked 221 Times in 145 Posts
I guess I would ask why you're changing housing, but not replacing cables. If the cables look fine, chances are the housing is also good enough. Especially if you're going to resell it.
Jeff Neese is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 09:23 AM
  #21  
sd5782 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Toledo Ohio
Posts: 936

Bikes: 1964 Frejus,1972 Fuji Newest, 1973 Schwinn Super Sport, 1983 Trek 700, 1985 Ironman, 1985 Torpado, 1983 Peugeot UO14, 1989 Miyata 1000LT and others

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 328 Post(s)
Liked 346 Times in 190 Posts
Kinks maybe

Originally Posted by Jeff Neese View Post
I guess I would ask why you're changing housing, but not replacing cables. If the cables look fine, chances are the housing is also good enough. Especially if you're going to resell it.
It seems many bikes get some kinks at the housing ends, especially the lever ends. Possible damage from turning bike upside down, and general abuse over the years. Cutting off a half inch of the housing is quite possible in some situations if it is long enough, especially for a flipper.
sd5782 is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 09:32 AM
  #22  
wrk101
Thrifty Bill
 
wrk101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Mountains of Western NC
Posts: 23,110

Bikes: 86 Katakura Silk, 87 Prologue X2, 88 Cimarron LE, 1975 Sekai 4000 Professional, 73 Paramount, plus more

Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1077 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times in 417 Posts
I also would not stop at housing. You can purchase stainless cables at very low cost, I just paid $5 for ten stainless shifter cables on Amazon for example. Most vintage bikes were made with unlined housing and steel cables. Neither age well.

As far as supplies, I use what I have first.

My logic on upgrades is that back in the day, when the bike was made, many owners made upgrades to their bikes over time. So upgrading it now is certainly not sacrilegious. Now if it were some rare, $3,000 bike, sure, I'd keep it original. But the stuff made for us common folks, not so much. Function is my first rule. Some original stuff did not work very well. And some original stuff did not fit me very well either (narrow handlebars, saddle, stem length, whatever).

Likely to be sold? Then I upgrade less, but do the logical maintenance and consumables replacement. I maintain a budget so I don't lose money on it, unless I am building it for a friend or family.

Last edited by wrk101; 02-27-22 at 09:36 AM.
wrk101 is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 09:42 AM
  #23  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,435

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1149 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3942 Post(s)
Liked 3,284 Times in 1,474 Posts
Originally Posted by C9H13N View Post
There are very few situations I can imagine in which re-using 40 year old housing is the right answer.
Or 40 year old tires, chains, maybe saddles, spokes, rims...
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 02-27-22, 09:42 AM
  #24  
delbiker1 
Mother Nature's Son
 
delbiker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 2,449

Bikes: Early 90's Ochsner road, 2006 Schwinn SS DBX, 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 1989? Fuji Ace, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 902 Times in 521 Posts
In my opinion, there is no such thing as sacrilege regarding bicycles. I am not into restoring, I like rebuilding with modern components and what it takes for me to be comfortable and like riding the bike. I do not do it for resale, per se. I do have bikes that at some point I will try to move on. That is more about age and needs.
delbiker1 is offline  
Old 02-27-22, 10:02 AM
  #25  
Mr. Spadoni 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 635
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 234 Post(s)
Liked 183 Times in 100 Posts
Sacrilege is putting so much time and money into a bike that it doesn’t get ridden.

Last edited by Mr. Spadoni; 02-27-22 at 10:12 PM.
Mr. Spadoni is offline  
Likes For Mr. Spadoni:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.