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Vintage (Italy 90's? ) frame identification - help!

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Vintage (Italy 90's? ) frame identification - help!

Old 03-02-22, 10:14 AM
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shmithys
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Vintage (Italy 90's? ) frame identification - help!

Hi!
I found this classic frame. All I know is that it is maybe Italy made.
Can anyone recognize the model?

Last edited by shmithys; 05-07-22 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 03-02-22, 10:26 AM
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-----

the underside of the bottom bracket shell is one image which might potentially advance in the inquiry

member MauriceMoss shall likely have some solid information for you

-----

Last edited by juvela; 03-02-22 at 10:29 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 03-02-22, 10:42 AM
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Evocative of the work of Jeff Lyon.

Nice bike. Is it yours or are you considering buying it? Does it have forks?
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Old 03-02-22, 10:46 AM
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certainly agreed with Juvela that Mr. Moss is the best next step in this case.
But in addition to underside of BB shell, here are some details that could use better pix: the chainstay bridge looks merged with the shell, that's unusual. Also the GPM DOs have the holes filled (I think) plus something odd about the brake bridge, another unique custom mod, perhaps,
Close-ups of all these will certainly help Maurice.
Only thing I'd add is that if it turns out to be Columbus tubing (pretty likely given all the clues that point to "Italy") then the 26.8 seatpost points to Aelle tubing.
And what about the fork, is that gone and lost?

Last edited by unworthy1; 03-02-22 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 03-02-22, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
Evocative of the work of Jeff Lyon.
Hmmm. I am not seeing a single thing that would be evocative of his work. To be fair, it is made of steel, so there's that.
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Old 03-02-22, 01:48 PM
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First of all, thank you everyone for the answer! I have more photos attached at the bottom
IMPORTANT INFO: This frame is brand new (!) - It comes from a forgotten warehouse.

Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

the underside of the bottom bracket shell is one image which might potentially advance in the inquiry

member MauriceMoss shall likely have some solid information for you

-----
Thanks! Photo of underside of the bottom bracket shell is below

Originally Posted by machinist42 View Post
Evocative of the work of Jeff Lyon.

Nice bike. Is it yours or are you considering buying it? Does it have forks?
I have a chance to buy this frame and I would like to know if it is worth anything. Brand new, without a fork.

Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
certainly agreed with Juvela that Mr. Moss is the best next step in this case.
But in addition to underside of BB shell, here are some details that could use better pix: the chainstay bridge looks merged with the shell, that's unusual. Also the GPM DOs have the holes filled (I think) plus something odd about the brake bridge, another unique custom mod, perhaps,
Close-ups of all these will certainly help Maurice.
Only thing I'd add is that if it turns out to be Columbus tubing (pretty likely given all the clues that point to "Italy") then the 26.8 seatpost points to Aelle tubing.
And what about the fork, is that gone and lost?
The frame is brand new - It comes from a forgotten warehouse.
I got more photos from the seller that may help.


Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat View Post
Hmmm. I am not seeing a single thing that would be evocative of his work. To be fair, it is made of steel, so there's that.

Last edited by shmithys; 05-07-22 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 03-02-22, 02:28 PM
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something about the 2 mentions here: "forgotten warehouse" and being sold with no fork makes me think ff the famous/infamous "Titan of Switzerland" frames...which were not Swiss but Italian-made.
Tho there's nothing I see here that's identical to any of them, and they often had very distinctive Carlo Desseno paint jobs.
But probably a good buy if it's Aelle, it fits you and the price is right!
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Old 03-02-22, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
something about the 2 mentions here: "forgotten warehouse" and being sold with no fork makes me think ff the famous/infamous "Titan of Switzerland" frames...which were not Swiss but Italian-made.
Tho there's nothing I see here that's identical to any of them, and they often had very distinctive Carlo Desseno paint jobs.
But probably a good buy if it's Aelle, it fits you and the price is right!
So maybe there will be someone who will know! How much do you think it is worth / What is the price?
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Old 03-02-22, 02:57 PM
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"How much do you think it is worth / What is the price? "
for that question you should really copy and paste this post (with photos) to the "appraisals" sub-forum "What's it Worth?"
but IIRC the Titan frames (no forks) were going for around $150 each at first, then they bumped up price depending on desirable factors like tubing, paint, size, and demand.
If you search these archives for "Titan of Switzerland" you can enjoy hours of reading and view some pix, too!
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Old 03-02-22, 02:57 PM
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-----
@shmithys -

keep in mind that not all Italian dimension frames are Italian products

it is certainly true the overwhemingly large proportion of the time that they are

there are or have been some produced in Belgium, Mexico and the US as well

do not wish to assert that this is the case here; mention it only to you as background

---

the frame's investment cast seat stay bridge is certainly distinctive and not one frequently encountered; it should narrow the possible maker a great deal for the cognoscenti


------
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Old 03-02-22, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----
@shmithys -

keep in mind that not all Italian dimension frames are Italian products

it is certainly true the overwhemingly large proportion of the time that they are

there are or have been some produced in Belgium, Mexico and the US as well

do not wish to assert that this is the case here; mention it only to you as background

---

the frame's investment cast seat stay bridge is certainly distinctive and not one frequently encountered; it should narrow the possible maker a great deal for the cognoscenti


------
"Italy made" - that's what the seller says.. I don't know anything about this frame, that's why I posted photos here.
I like the look of this frame because it has interesting details - I don't see them on a daily basis


Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
"How much do you think it is worth / What is the price? "
for that question you should really copy and paste this post (with photos) to the "appraisals" sub-forum "What's it Worth?"
but IIRC the Titan frames (no forks) were going for around $150 each at first, then they bumped up price depending on desirable factors like tubing, paint, size, and demand.
If you search these archives for "Titan of Switzerland" you can enjoy hours of reading and view some pix, too!
hmm, sounds cool! It's time to read about Titan- thanks for advice

Last edited by shmithys; 03-02-22 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 03-03-22, 01:02 AM
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If it is italian and 90ies (i think you guess right here) there is about a 90% chance it is a Billato or a BMZ, no matter which label graced the tubes once or was supposed to - between the two of them, they made the frames for the majority of italian brands and some foreign ones, too; of course there also were smaller shops doing "OEM" work. Both made "generic" frames that could and would be ordered by smaller brands and shops to put their own name on it, larger customers could have them made to their specs in terms of geometry and details, which would explain the unusal modification to the rear brake bridge, dont think i've seen that before. the coated rear dropouts make me think either repaint or a lower range model, mid- to upper range would have.that chromed.
If a frame was made without distinguishing features like Pantos, or a brand specific seatstay cluster etc, it will be close to impossible to ever identify the brand.

Last edited by martl; 03-03-22 at 01:10 AM.
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Old 03-03-22, 01:22 AM
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There are a few interesting qualities such as the brake bridge and chainstay that this forum's keen experts will hopefully be able to recognize. Not that any of that hasn't already been said, but I am interested in seeing a result develop.

I do appreciate your use of the term "brand new." I wonder if a warehouse worker had a project frame they left at work and eventually forgot about? Or, perhaps, it's a legendary Tour de France winner's hidden prototype bicycle. Nonetheless it's definitely worth something, and a few of those somethings at the minimum. Being without a matching fork will play a factor in the frames final sale price. I notice you've posted a photo with an extra fork and wheelset, did these parts also come from this forgotten warehouse and might it be possible to ask whomever forgot this warehouse about the frame and parts?
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Old 03-03-22, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by martl View Post
If it is italian and 90ies (i think you guess right here) there is about a 90% chance it is a Billato or a BMZ, no matter which label graced the tubes once or was supposed to - between the two of them, they made the frames for the majority of italian brands and some foreign ones, too; of course there also were smaller shops doing "OEM" work. Both made "generic" frames that could and would be ordered by smaller brands and shops to put their own name on it, larger customers could have them made to their specs in terms of geometry and details, which would explain the unusal modification to the rear brake bridge, dont think i've seen that before. the coated rear dropouts make me think either repaint or a lower range model, mid- to upper range would have.that chromed.
If a frame was made without distinguishing features like Pantos, or a brand specific seatstay cluster etc, it will be close to impossible to ever identify the brand.
thank you for the large amount of info! As you say, it's hard to tell exactly what it is.
Many bikes with gipiemme rear dropouts had them painted ( I have not always seen them chromed )
I think i will buy this frame


Originally Posted by SoccerBallXan View Post
There are a few interesting qualities such as the brake bridge and chainstay that this forum's keen experts will hopefully be able to recognize. Not that any of that hasn't already been said, but I am interested in seeing a result develop.

I do appreciate your use of the term "brand new." I wonder if a warehouse worker had a project frame they left at work and eventually forgot about? Or, perhaps, it's a legendary Tour de France winner's hidden prototype bicycle. Nonetheless it's definitely worth something, and a few of those somethings at the minimum. Being without a matching fork will play a factor in the frames final sale price. I notice you've posted a photo with an extra fork and wheelset, did these parts also come from this forgotten warehouse and might it be possible to ask whomever forgot this warehouse about the frame and parts?
I would like to solve the mystery of this frame. I am hopeful that it will succeed.

So, now about the term "brand new". The guy who is selling this frame has a lot of other (mostly new) parts.
I suspect that there was once a bicycle warehouse (90s), it was run by one man who died and the whole inheritance was given to a son who does not know anything about it. If there is a Cinelli sticker on the bike - he is selling the Cinelli bike. If there is nothing, he calls the frame ITALIAN. Unfortunately, there is no original fork for this frame. If the parts are from the old warehouse, they could be delivered or ordered separately for a special customer.


For example: the client wanted his dream bike, very expensive, made an advance payment but gave up. The client could also provide his private parts for the bike assembly, but he changed his decision (for example he bought a different frame because the color did not suit him). The private frame was left in the bike shop and the client got a discount.
If this frame could talk, it would say why she was left alone
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Old 03-03-22, 01:08 PM
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I think the frame will turn out to be a pretty good bet but personally have no idea who built it.
Most of the big name Italian contract builders (such as Biemmezeta/BMZ and Billato) still left enough identifying touches on their frames that we can recognize their products.
This one has several unique marks but they are very unusual and will take some deep expertise to ID (such as that of MauriceMoss who is a continual amazement!).
I sent you down a rabbit hole with the Titan of Switzerland ref: no chance this was ever built by that Italian contractor(s) but hope you get your answer.
It's probably gonna turn out well if you buy, build and ride this frame: if it's Aelle or Chromor with GPM DOs it can't be bad.
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Old 03-03-22, 01:39 PM
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The paint is lighter on the Gipiemme rear DO might be chrome underneath. Also, why is the triangle filled in on the DO?

Last edited by seypat; 03-03-22 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 03-03-22, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
The paint is lighter on the Gipiemme rear DO might be chrome underneath. Also, why is the triangle filled in on the DO?
Answered my own question. Might help determine brand/mfger.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254102243726
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Old 03-03-22, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
I think the frame will turn out to be a pretty good bet but personally have no idea who built it.
Most of the big name Italian contract builders (such as Biemmezeta/BMZ and Billato) still left enough identifying touches on their frames that we can recognize their products.
This one has several unique marks but they are very unusual and will take some deep expertise to ID (such as that of MauriceMoss who is a continual amazement!).
I sent you down a rabbit hole with the Titan of Switzerland ref: no chance this was ever built by that Italian contractor(s) but hope you get your answer.
It's probably gonna turn out well if you buy, build and ride this frame: if it's Aelle or Chromor with GPM DOs it can't be bad.
In a few days I will have this frame at home. It looks well made, but determining its model is more interesting for me
One thing is for sure - DOs are GPM


Originally Posted by seypat View Post
The paint is lighter on the Gipiemme rear DO might be chrome underneath. Also, why is the triangle filled in on the DO?
Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Answered my own question. Might help determine brand/mfger.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254102243726
So, the GPM DOs are OG without a chrome-finish. That's another hint.
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Old 03-03-22, 02:37 PM
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A front FD hanger plate but no TT cable guides? Are there holes for internal cable guiding? Is that unusual?
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Old 03-03-22, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
A front FD hanger plate but no TT cable guides? Are there holes for internal cable guiding? Is that unusual?
yes, unusual.
Several things that are not typical with this frame: the chainstay and brake bridges, and altered guide on the BB shell for starters.
Per the GPM dropouts. I had not seen those with the solid "web" as OP linked to before now.
The ones I thought this frame uses are these which have a threaded hole in a boss in the web casting. Very common on Bianchis of a certain mid '80s age.


found on the interwebs
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Old 03-03-22, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
yes, unusual.
Several things that are not typical with this frame: the chainstay and brake bridges, and altered guide on the BB shell for starters.
Per the GPM dropouts. I had not seen those with the solid "web" as OP linked to before now.
The ones I thought this frame uses are these which have a threaded hole in a boss in the web casting. Very common on Bianchis of a certain mid '80s age.


found on the interwebs
Rossin brake bridge is a bit similar. Some models had solid gpm dropouts, but this is just my loose find which is probably not related.
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Old 03-03-22, 09:48 PM
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the "Cinelli" bridge on that Rossin is very well known, however it got me looking at a few of the "usual suspect" sources and this catalog page from Gipiemme (courtesy of Velobase) has the same bridge as our "mystery": item 1 841 AF at bottom of the brake bridge row



One more question: there's some serial number on the BB shell I did not notice before, can you supply a better pic of just the numbers (or notate them if all are 100% clear)?

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Old 03-04-22, 04:53 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
the "Cinelli" bridge on that Rossin is very well known, however it got me looking at a few of the "usual suspect" sources and this catalog page from Gipiemme (courtesy of Velobase) has the same bridge as our "mystery": item 1 841 AF at bottom of the brake bridge row



One more question: there's some serial number on the BB shell I did not notice before, can you supply a better pic of just the numbers (or notate them if all are 100% clear)?
I can't believe you managed to find the exact same bridge! That's good news.

I noticed the numbers on bb shell too but now it's a little problem - the frame was sent to me via Post.
Maybe on monday or tuesday the package will be in my hands. Then I can take very good pictures of all the details.
Photos I have now are not in good quality and the number is not visible
I think we will see more in a few day!
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Old 03-07-22, 09:25 AM
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Today I picked up my package and I am throwing a link to the photos!
Frame SN : S213
On the top left side of the supportis one digit : "8"
Brake bridge - Gipiemme Patent
Rear DO - Gipiemme Patent
Two cable holes on the top tube.
Photos
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Old 03-07-22, 11:29 AM
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wow, that google drive site makes my computer act like it's on (bad) drugs!
I'd like to be able to view all those pix but cannot get anywhere on that site, anybody else find this to be a problem? Have any work-arounds?

Short answer is I still don't see anything recognizable in these (very distinctive and not so much) details to indicate who may have built it. Still need to hear from someone with true expertise! Looking at YOU MauriceMoss

Last edited by unworthy1; 03-07-22 at 11:32 AM.
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