Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Simplex SLJ indexing?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Simplex SLJ indexing?

Old 03-30-22, 06:51 AM
  #1  
ehcoplex
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 840

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, ’97 Cannondale T900, '98 Peugeot Appalaches, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules 3sp (x2)..

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 283 Posts
Simplex SLJ indexing?

In a perfect world I'd find some affordable Retrofriction bar-ends for my PX-10, but that seems pretty unlikely.... So if I (might) abandon trying to keep things (mostly) French, I'm wondering if indexing works with a Simplex SLJ RD and a Sunrace (Shimano clone, I believe) 7sp freewheel? Has anyone made it work?
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 03-30-22, 06:58 AM
  #2  
bikemig 
Senior Member
 
bikemig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 19,555

Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones

Mentioned: 169 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5504 Post(s)
Liked 2,438 Times in 1,565 Posts
The question is why would you want to do this even if it works? There are so many good quality non-indexing shifters that are appropriate for your bike. Heck just get a pair of relatively affordable suntour barcons and call it a day. That was a pretty common solution BITD.
bikemig is offline  
Likes For bikemig:
Old 03-30-22, 07:09 AM
  #3  
ehcoplex
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 840

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, ’97 Cannondale T900, '98 Peugeot Appalaches, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules 3sp (x2)..

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 283 Posts
Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
The question is why would you want to do this even if it works? There are so many good quality non-indexing shifters that are appropriate for your bike. Heck just get a pair of relatively affordable suntour barcons and call it a day. That was a pretty common solution BITD.
Why? Oh, I don't know, just to make things more complicated I suppose..! I'm fine with friction, was just sorta wondering if it would work indexed then maybe I'd get shifters that had that option for the heck of it. But OK, I do agree that aesthetically the 'appropriate' bar-ends aren't indexed!
ehcoplex is offline  
Likes For ehcoplex:
Old 03-30-22, 10:04 AM
  #4  
Andy_K 
Senior Member
 
Andy_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 13,977

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 465 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2740 Post(s)
Liked 2,319 Times in 952 Posts
You're building a French bike and you want to make things more complicated? Clearly, you're the kind of cyclist who enjoys suffering.

Maybe look into Sachs New Success?
__________________
My Bikes
Andy_K is offline  
Likes For Andy_K:
Old 03-30-22, 11:16 AM
  #5  
T-Mar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 22,970
Mentioned: 621 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4579 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2,745 Times in 1,728 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
You're building a French bike and you want to make things more complicated? Clearly, you're the kind of cyclist who enjoys suffering.

Maybe look into Sachs New Success?
If he really wanted to make things more complicated, the OP could get himself a pair if Synro shift levers, measure the angular lever rotation required for a shift with the SLJ/Sunrace combination and make his own inserts. It would work just as good as Nuovo/Super Record did with Syncro, and that isn't saying much.
T-Mar is offline  
Likes For T-Mar:
Old 03-30-22, 11:30 AM
  #6  
non-fixie 
Shifting is fun!
 
non-fixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 10,291

Bikes: Yes, please.

Mentioned: 262 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1912 Post(s)
Liked 2,785 Times in 1,205 Posts
Originally Posted by ehcoplex View Post
Why? Oh, I don't know, just to make things more complicated I suppose. (...)
Already my favorite reply of the day.
non-fixie is offline  
Likes For non-fixie:
Old 03-30-22, 11:54 AM
  #7  
Andy_K 
Senior Member
 
Andy_K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Beaverton, OR
Posts: 13,977

Bikes: Yes

Mentioned: 465 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2740 Post(s)
Liked 2,319 Times in 952 Posts
Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
If he really wanted to make things more complicated, the OP could get himself a pair if Synro shift levers, measure the angular lever rotation required for a shift with the SLJ/Sunrace combination and make his own inserts. It would work just as good as Nuovo/Super Record did with Syncro, and that isn't saying much.
You know, I've thought about this before. It seems like with enough patience and a 3D printer you could make any derailleur index with Syncro. Unfortunately, I have neither patience nor a 3D printer.
__________________
My Bikes
Andy_K is offline  
Old 03-30-22, 12:23 PM
  #8  
Chombi1 
Senior Member
 
Chombi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,939
Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1404 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 519 Times in 352 Posts
Yes,.... 1st gen Synchro levers on bar end adapters plus a non indexed designed RD, would certainly make for an ultimate challenge...... maybe one can even throw in some very compressible CLB aluminum cable casings into the mix too!....
One might need to be a C&V build God to such work to even a minimally acceptable state.
Chombi1 is offline  
Old 03-30-22, 02:58 PM
  #9  
ehcoplex
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 840

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, ’97 Cannondale T900, '98 Peugeot Appalaches, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules 3sp (x2)..

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 563 Times in 283 Posts
OK, OK........ K(eep) I(t) S(imple) S(tupid)......

don't need no stinkin' indexing anyway!
ehcoplex is offline  
Likes For ehcoplex:
Old 03-30-22, 04:16 PM
  #10  
verktyg 
verktyg
 
verktyg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 4,004

Bikes: Current favorites: 1988 Peugeot Birraritz, 1984 Gitane Super Corsa, 1981 Bianchi Campione Del Mondo, 1992 Paramount OS, 1990 Bianchi Mondiale, 1988 Colnago Technos, 1985 RalieghUSA Team Pro, 1973 Holdsworth

Mentioned: 198 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1018 Post(s)
Liked 1,134 Times in 615 Posts
Solution: Not Indexing But Just About As Good

ehcoplex and everyone else...

The secret to successful indexing is having an upper pulley with some lateral side to side float. It allows the chain to center on the sprocket when the position of the derailleur is close. 1.5mm to 2mm is sufficient.

Shimano called their upper pulley design "Centeron" This works without any issues from 5 to 8 speeds. On 9 speeds and up the sprockets are closer together so too much float can cause shifting problems. I only have 1 or 2 bikes with 9 speed cassettes so it's not been an issue for me.

I've been modifying the upper pulleys on most of the RDs that I've installed or worked on. Using a flat bastard file laying on my work bench I remove .75mm to 1mm from each side of the plastic pulley. You can also use coarse sandpaper. Don't touch the center bushing.

There are a few pulleys that this doesn't work on can't remember which ones. Disassembling older Suntour RDs to get the upper pulley out is probably too much work.

I figured this out back in 2007. I was putting together a wet weather beater bike using components that I had. I experimented with the pulley modification trick on a Simplex SX610 RD and it worked! I had to file down the inner travel stop a little to get the derailleur to move inward enough to cover the 8 speed cassette. It's been shifting flawlessly for 15 years!



The one problem that I ran into was getting enough cable wrap to cover the 8 speed cassette. After trying several different types of levers, I found these Sachs-Huret Rival 8 speed index levers which had a cable barrel diameter large enough to work well. At first I was using them in friction mode. Then I switched to index mode and they worked perfectly. These levers have the same dimensions as Shimano 8 speed indexing levers and interchange with them, thus the Rival name.



So to answer the OP's question, any levers will give you indexing type results with the modified upper pulley. I'm even getting those results with Campy NR/SR RDs. Very little 2 forward, I back trimming needed!

My 1971 Motobecane Grand Record with Campy NR derailleurs and a modified upper pulley shifts a plain old Atom 13-28T FW and Sedis chain as smoothly as many indexing setups!



Lastly, I recommend switching to one of the new 6-7-8 speed rated chains like the SRAM PC830-850-870 series or KMC equivalent.

verktyg
__________________
Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....

Chas. ;-)


Last edited by verktyg; 03-30-22 at 04:20 PM.
verktyg is offline  
Likes For verktyg:
Old 03-30-22, 04:45 PM
  #11  
dddd
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 8,480

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 122 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1254 Post(s)
Liked 772 Times in 544 Posts
The actuation ratio of old friction derailers such as this Simplex SLJ will be very close to that of any pre-1997 (pre-9s) Shimano Dura-Ace rear derailer.

As such, a pair of hard-to-find-cheaply 7s Dura-Ace levers would be my first choice.

A pair of 9s Shimano indexed levers will also pull very close to the same amount of cable, so would be my second choice.

I would definitely test the result before modifying the top pulley, as one will first want to know if the shifting suffered from noise when not shifting or from lazy, unresponsive shifting.

Since adding any pulley float will make the shifting less responsive, I would only use a floating pulley if there was more of a problem of noise while not shifting.

Lastly, improving the responsiveness of the shifting event can be helped by moving the top pulley closer to the freewheel, especially using a smaller freewheel that won't impose as much of a change in the chain gap going from one cog to another.
The pulley's proximity to the freewheel can be altered by changing the relative spring tension between the cage pivot and the mounting pivot (B-pivot). Some of these derailers have provisions for adjusting the cage spring tension using a lock-nut and some provide more than one hole for the end of one or the other sprung pivots, or you can drill another hole as needed for the end of the spring so as to alter the spring's tension.

Another "lastly"; the performance of the cabling will be critical to having any chance of achieving usefully-good indexing performance!

Best of luck with this.
dddd is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.