Horizontal Dropouts: Why??
#26
framebuilder
I'll repeat what I wrote earlier that the emphasis on using horizontal dropouts is primarily based on framebuilder efficiency. It is much harder to use vertical dropouts and get a wheel to be right in the center of both the chain stays and seat stays with the limited equipment classic era artisans used. Before during and after I learned how to build frames in Yorkshire in the mid 70's I visited many non-production builders in Europe (including the Taylor Bros). Ellis Briggs where I learned had the best equipment I was aware of but had nothing except spending time to make verticals at a perfect length. Because frames sold in that era for less than $150 a builder didn't have time to fuss.
One option that Shimano came out with (in the late 70's I'd guess) was a semi-vertical dropout with little bitty screw adjusters. Shimano undoubtedly realized the problem and as a result came up with their EF dropouts. This discussion comes up fairly often on the Classic Rendezvous list and most posts come from the buyer promoting the advantages of verticals instead of the disadvantages they require of the maker and as a result the subject thread don't acknowledge the real problem. When the Japanese;started importing their frames they made them with precise fixturing so for them it didn't matter which type of dropout was used.
Here is a picture of a bicycle frame I made in 1980 with Shimano EF semi-vertical dropouts.
Shimano EF semi-vertical dropouts on a custom frame I made in 1980
One option that Shimano came out with (in the late 70's I'd guess) was a semi-vertical dropout with little bitty screw adjusters. Shimano undoubtedly realized the problem and as a result came up with their EF dropouts. This discussion comes up fairly often on the Classic Rendezvous list and most posts come from the buyer promoting the advantages of verticals instead of the disadvantages they require of the maker and as a result the subject thread don't acknowledge the real problem. When the Japanese;started importing their frames they made them with precise fixturing so for them it didn't matter which type of dropout was used.
Here is a picture of a bicycle frame I made in 1980 with Shimano EF semi-vertical dropouts.
Shimano EF semi-vertical dropouts on a custom frame I made in 1980
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1. Vertical dropouts were invented by a grumpy old guy who hated seeing fixed gear conversions.
2. Horizontal dropouts work fine with internal cam QRs, not so much with internal cams.
3. Track ends are not dropouts.
4. There is one other type found on the best classic bikes:
2. Horizontal dropouts work fine with internal cam QRs, not so much with internal cams.
3. Track ends are not dropouts.
4. There is one other type found on the best classic bikes:
#29
Junior Member
Thread Starter
A big thank you for the responses; I knew I'd learn something! I won't say I like horizontal dropouts, but at least I can appreciate all of the history behind them. Of course, the first time the axle slips forward on the drive side in reaction to the serious watts I put down () I will have something more colorful to say about them.
John
John
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1. Vertical dropouts were invented by a grumpy old guy who hated seeing fixed gear conversions.
2. Horizontal dropouts work fine with internal cam QRs, not so much with internal cams.
3. Track ends are not dropouts.
4. There is one other type found on the best classic bikes:
2. Horizontal dropouts work fine with internal cam QRs, not so much with internal cams.
3. Track ends are not dropouts.
4. There is one other type found on the best classic bikes:
#31
Strong Walker
btw Gios used adjustable dropouts on their "compact" frames to allow wheelbase adjustment. whether or not that affected handling in a significant way is another matter but it was a thing.
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#34
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Agree with everyone who said it was because frames weren't always built that well so it gave you a bit of "wiggle room". I have also seen it claimed that people used to run a fixed gear for winter training to save getting mud all over their derailleurs. Doesn't sound super-plausible to me just on the face of it.
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...The word I heard when I was racing in the mid-70s was that vertical dropouts had taken over in pro racing because wheel changes were faster. Indexing had nothing to do with it; in fact it was years before it even existing at the racing level....
The discussion I see there is interesting but misses the driving timeline of pro racing. The vertical drop switch was driven there before Shimano was even a player in the pro road scene, never mind SIS.
The discussion I see there is interesting but misses the driving timeline of pro racing. The vertical drop switch was driven there before Shimano was even a player in the pro road scene, never mind SIS.
If you examine 1985 race photos, advertisement and catalogues, you'll find that the the bicycles supplied to the following teams were equipped with horizontal dropouts: La View Claire (Hinault), Panasonic - Raleigh, Lotto (Eddy Merckx), Kelme (Eddy Merckx), Hitachi (Splendor), Sommontana (Bianchi), Carrera (Battaglin), Renault - Elf (Gitane), Ariostea (De Rosa), Malvor (Bottecchia), Gis - Trentino (Moser), Kwantum - Decosol (Colnago), Del Tongo - Colnago, Safir - Van De Ven (Colnago), Atala - Camapgnolo, La Redoute (Motobecane), Fagor (Zeus), Zor (Zeus), Alpilatte (Olmo), Gin - MG (Orbea), Reynolds (Pinarello).
The only major European based pro teams using bicycles with vertical dropouts were those with aluminum or carbon frame frames. The vast majority were still using steel frames with horizontal dropouts. If you look at the bicycle industry in 1985, vertical dropouts were used primarily on non-ferrous frames, grand touring bicycles and ATBs. Yes, there were some exceptions, but the industry as a whole, and road racing in particular, was still overwhelmingly steel frames with horizontal dropouts. Indexing would become the prime factor in reversing that situation.
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Agree with everyone who said it was because frames weren't always built that well so it gave you a bit of "wiggle room". I have also seen it claimed that people used to run a fixed gear for winter training to save getting mud all over their derailleurs. Doesn't sound super-plausible to me just on the face of it.
Edit: Back then, n+1 and specialized bicles were rare, except for the well off, so for most amateur racers their competition bicycle was general purpose. About the only fairly common concession, was an extra set of wheels, for training.
Last edited by T-Mar; 05-02-22 at 07:21 AM.
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Edit: T-Mar said the opposite. Keep that in mind. His response to my reply is below.
Last edited by smontanaro; 05-02-22 at 08:12 AM.
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I'm good with any excuse to use micro-adjusters on a bike--like the screw adjusters in horizontal dropouts.
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...I agree with T-Mar that SIS was unlikely to have been a major driver in the switch to vertical dropouts.
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Probably because one could accidentally pop the rear wheel out under hard/emergency breaking if the if everything isn't fully tight.
#43
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Yes. (Mine's cleaner, much longer; nearly 2", the 90 degree turn (not more as in the photo) goes into a slot like a vertical dropout. No backward pull required to remove the wheel. You could put in too big a tire, then inflate it hard so the wheel is solidly jammed and you'd still be above to pull it out. Your photo may well be the dropout the Portland fix gear guru told me about when he saw mine. This one is close the dropout I saw at the velodrome in size though that one had an entry like mine.
Now this one also has a vertical dropout forward, That I have never seen before. I'd love to know that that is all about. Looks like it could be a derailleur mount but is so, why would it open down and not just be a secure hole?
Now this one also has a vertical dropout forward, That I have never seen before. I'd love to know that that is all about. Looks like it could be a derailleur mount but is so, why would it open down and not just be a secure hole?
#44
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[QUOTE=guy153;22491866... I have also seen it claimed that people used to run a fixed gear for winter training to save getting mud all over their derailleurs. Doesn't sound super-plausible to me just on the face of it.[/QUOTE]
Fact. Many of us rode fix gear in the winter. 1970s in Boston, the guru racing, John Allis, the first to race in Europe in the very early '70, swore by winter fix gear training, did it forever and was famous as being hard as nails. I didn't remove the derailleur from my racing bike, I set my other bike up fix gear at the advice of several of my club's veterans. (Winters there were salt, not mud. Not a place you wanted to take your race bike. Few if us removed derailleurs but it we lived in a salt free area, we might well have. I remember hearing of it. And on ice, derailleur-free bikes have another advantage. When you lay the bike down to the drive side on that ice, the bike still works and you can ride it home.)
Fact. Many of us rode fix gear in the winter. 1970s in Boston, the guru racing, John Allis, the first to race in Europe in the very early '70, swore by winter fix gear training, did it forever and was famous as being hard as nails. I didn't remove the derailleur from my racing bike, I set my other bike up fix gear at the advice of several of my club's veterans. (Winters there were salt, not mud. Not a place you wanted to take your race bike. Few if us removed derailleurs but it we lived in a salt free area, we might well have. I remember hearing of it. And on ice, derailleur-free bikes have another advantage. When you lay the bike down to the drive side on that ice, the bike still works and you can ride it home.)
Last edited by 79pmooney; 05-02-22 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Visual tweak to make more readable
#45
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It's a skill. Not difficult, but your fingers will get some chain grease on em.
You would think so... you'd be wrong. You'd have to totally bugger up the wheel install to get something to go wrong. Klein invented these things because they're a little lighter and they allow for a shorter wheelbase, but the hub/dropout interface is at least as secure as forward vertical dropouts.
You would think so... you'd be wrong. You'd have to totally bugger up the wheel install to get something to go wrong. Klein invented these things because they're a little lighter and they allow for a shorter wheelbase, but the hub/dropout interface is at least as secure as forward vertical dropouts.
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#46
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I love horizontal dropouts, to me they are the epitome of design tweaks over the life of a longstanding product resulting in multiple benefits.
They aren't really horizontal, but the angle of them has evolved to be tangential to the rear brake pad mounting bolt. This minimizes as much as possible the amount of both angle and reach adjustment needed at the brake pads when moving the wheel through the range of the dropout.
The additional benefit of their long evolution is that the ride characteristics promoted by the position of the wheel within the dropout are complementary. If I have smaller, lighter tires on the bike and move the wheel to its most forward position, the wheelbase will be shorter, which generally will promote a quicker handling ride. Again, due to the angle of the dropout, this position also results in the rear end of the bike moving up several mm, both raising the bottom bracket and effectively steepening the head and seat tube angles - all characteristics that will make the bike respond faster to inputs.
Conversely, if I wanted to soften the ride, the first things to do would be to mount bigger tires on the bike and move the wheels back, which will increase the wheelbase, lower the rear of the bike (assuming same size tires front and back), slacken the head and seat angles, and provide for a bit more clearance around the rear brake and behind the seat tube. If keeping similar sized tires, this position also allows for more room for fenders for converting a bike to winter training. Again, changing all of these attributes simultaneously is complementary to the desired result.
They aren't really horizontal, but the angle of them has evolved to be tangential to the rear brake pad mounting bolt. This minimizes as much as possible the amount of both angle and reach adjustment needed at the brake pads when moving the wheel through the range of the dropout.
The additional benefit of their long evolution is that the ride characteristics promoted by the position of the wheel within the dropout are complementary. If I have smaller, lighter tires on the bike and move the wheel to its most forward position, the wheelbase will be shorter, which generally will promote a quicker handling ride. Again, due to the angle of the dropout, this position also results in the rear end of the bike moving up several mm, both raising the bottom bracket and effectively steepening the head and seat tube angles - all characteristics that will make the bike respond faster to inputs.
Conversely, if I wanted to soften the ride, the first things to do would be to mount bigger tires on the bike and move the wheels back, which will increase the wheelbase, lower the rear of the bike (assuming same size tires front and back), slacken the head and seat angles, and provide for a bit more clearance around the rear brake and behind the seat tube. If keeping similar sized tires, this position also allows for more room for fenders for converting a bike to winter training. Again, changing all of these attributes simultaneously is complementary to the desired result.
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#47
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I love horizontal dropouts, to me they are the epitome of design tweaks over the life of a longstanding product resulting in multiple benefits.
They aren't really horizontal, but the angle of them has evolved to be tangential to the rear brake pad mounting bolt. This minimizes as much as possible the amount of both angle and reach adjustment needed at the brake pads when moving the wheel through the range of the dropout.
The additional benefit of their long evolution is that the ride characteristics promoted by the position of the wheel within the dropout are complementary. If I have smaller, lighter tires on the bike and move the wheel to its most forward position, the wheelbase will be shorter, which generally will promote a quicker handling ride. Again, due to the angle of the dropout, this position also results in the rear end of the bike moving up several mm, both raising the bottom bracket and effectively steepening the head and seat tube angles - all characteristics that will make the bike respond faster to inputs.
Conversely, if I wanted to soften the ride, the first things to do would be to mount bigger tires on the bike and move the wheels back, which will increase the wheelbase, lower the rear of the bike (assuming same size tires front and back), slacken the head and seat angles, and provide for a bit more clearance around the rear brake and behind the seat tube. If keeping similar sized tires, this position also allows for more room for fenders for converting a bike to winter training. Again, changing all of these attributes simultaneously is complementary to the desired result.
They aren't really horizontal, but the angle of them has evolved to be tangential to the rear brake pad mounting bolt. This minimizes as much as possible the amount of both angle and reach adjustment needed at the brake pads when moving the wheel through the range of the dropout.
The additional benefit of their long evolution is that the ride characteristics promoted by the position of the wheel within the dropout are complementary. If I have smaller, lighter tires on the bike and move the wheel to its most forward position, the wheelbase will be shorter, which generally will promote a quicker handling ride. Again, due to the angle of the dropout, this position also results in the rear end of the bike moving up several mm, both raising the bottom bracket and effectively steepening the head and seat tube angles - all characteristics that will make the bike respond faster to inputs.
Conversely, if I wanted to soften the ride, the first things to do would be to mount bigger tires on the bike and move the wheels back, which will increase the wheelbase, lower the rear of the bike (assuming same size tires front and back), slacken the head and seat angles, and provide for a bit more clearance around the rear brake and behind the seat tube. If keeping similar sized tires, this position also allows for more room for fenders for converting a bike to winter training. Again, changing all of these attributes simultaneously is complementary to the desired result.
The big part of my choice of dropout angle is to avoid lowering the BB any more than I absolutely need to because it is when I am using those tiny cogs that I am doing mountain descents with corners. Striking a pedal there would not be fun. After 20,000 miles, that bike is still the most fun bike I have ever ridden and there isn't one decision from the seattube back that I would tweak at all. It's all a compromise, yes, but a really good one. (I'd push the front wheel 5mm forward to get fender toe clearance.)
Last edited by 79pmooney; 05-02-22 at 03:32 PM. Reason: typos!
#48
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I'm assuming that this comment was made with tongue in cheek??
For the most part, it did. Still, most of us have had paint rubbed off of the inboard side of the left chainstay after the axle slipped. This was more of a problem with chromed dropouts. The problem was largely fixed with good quick releases, and serrated locknuts on the hub axle helped maintain a good grip on the dropout too.
A quick photo showing the locknut on a Campagnolo Record hub...
Another issue with horizontal dropouts relates to fenders... having to slide the wheel forward to remove it usually means that the front of the rear fender has to be spaced further out than otherwise needed. Not a functional problem, but it does look goofy.
Steve in Peoria
For the most part, it did. Still, most of us have had paint rubbed off of the inboard side of the left chainstay after the axle slipped. This was more of a problem with chromed dropouts. The problem was largely fixed with good quick releases, and serrated locknuts on the hub axle helped maintain a good grip on the dropout too.
A quick photo showing the locknut on a Campagnolo Record hub...
Another issue with horizontal dropouts relates to fenders... having to slide the wheel forward to remove it usually means that the front of the rear fender has to be spaced further out than otherwise needed. Not a functional problem, but it does look goofy.
Steve in Peoria
That issue gets extra bad when using fenders on bikes like my Batavus Randonneur with its fenders. 35mm with fenders easily fits but those dropouts probably only work with 22mm strings of rubber.
But then again, I was born in the late 80's when both cars, electronics and bicycles started having tighter tolerances.
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#49
Newbie
Rearward dropout take too long to change the wheel in race situations. I raced Kleins for two years and can tell you from experience of trying to chase back to the group that it is inferior to forward facing horizontal dropouts for races. It's probably fine otherwise, but it still makes it hard to get the wheel out to change a flat.
Last edited by MCHunt; 05-02-22 at 06:39 PM.
#50
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The Bike Butcher of Portland often gets requests to replace horizontal dropouts with verticals.
He has yet to get a request to replace verticals with horizontals.
Vertical positives far outweigh negatives for the majority of usages. YMMV.
He has yet to get a request to replace verticals with horizontals.
Vertical positives far outweigh negatives for the majority of usages. YMMV.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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