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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

Old 05-26-22, 08:18 AM
  #76  
smd4
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler View Post
The flex made for a very comfortable ride--cushioned the shock of routine bumps very nicely--but if someone accelerated off the front and I wanted to stay with them, a portion of my initial burst of energy would be absorbed in the flex, creating a lag in my response. That meant I had to work harder to keep from getting dropped (hard enough for me already!) Over the course of a ride, repeatedly paying that penalty meant less energy in reserve if I wanted to break away. That certainly seems to be the rationale for serious competition frames to be beefier and have more rigid geometry.
There's always a tradeoff between flex and rigidity. Personally, I agree with you that a frame should flex as little as possible; however there are folks here who think frame rigidity equals discomfort.
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Old 05-26-22, 05:49 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Frame flex isn't a sign of poor engineering or craftsmanship.
European lugged steel frames? I thought all you could afford was American crap because you were "too cheap and impoverished?"
I guess it is time for you to quit thinking then and start reading. If you look at the start of the thread all it says is I ride second-hand bikes, and there is a photo of a Fuji I have here, which is not American crap. In the past I have owned old Euro steel bikes, but they don't pop up as much or as cheap as they used to, and my last one I crashed out of existence. If I can get it for pocket-change in my size, I will ride it.
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Old 05-27-22, 07:56 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
That is part of racing, flat tires etc.. One time before a time-trial I got a flat tire, changed it, then got another one during the time trial, I think I threw the bike about three car-lengths. You can also get bad weather as in a super-windy day, and one time after training all summer and really thinking I was going to set a personal best at an upcoming race, I got a bad cold the day before the race and it knocked two or three miles-per-hour off my top speed. So when I say how fast I think I will go in a race, I am just going by how fast I can usually go in training, but that speed will only happen in a race if the weather is good, the rider is healthy, and the bike stays in one piece.
If the bike does not stay in one piece, better talk to the mechanic.
The club member cited, was a character, every time he got dropped there was a mysterious flat. So much so he was teased if he brought his tacks with him that day.
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Old 05-27-22, 10:45 AM
  #79  
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Interesting thread...

Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Then why do you have the seat slammed all the way back on the rails (the Fuji in particular)? You seem to be working at cross-purposes here.
Instead of buying multiple cheap non-racing bikes, seems like you could save your money and eventually get a real racing bike. Then you wouldn't have to take shortcuts like turning the seat clamp backwards. A real racing bike is so much more than just the seat tube angle.
Oh...and if you want to go faster, take that reflector off the front wheel.
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Apparently how other people's bikes look to you is what's most important?
That does not appear logically deducible from the words above.
Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
That's the impression I'm getting. "Buy another bike so I don't have to look at your seat clamp any more!"
A stretch from ... eventually get a real racing bike" to "so I don't have to look at your seat clamp any more."
Appears there is an underlying assumption that is not based on the actual words used, while the actual words may not interpret as intended.


Anyway....

A rider's body is a collection of levers and pivot points, and a power supply.
The leverages brought to bear are affected by the length of the levers.
A bicycle has 3 contact points, correlating to a rider's body: pedal, saddle, bars.

Those 3 contact points directly affect the leverage that can be brought to bear.
Toss in aerodynamics above a certain threshold, and we're always looking for the best trade-off.

We adjust them all, and often still don't get it right. Maybe almost always not.

The trick is to find the most efficient setup possible, regardless of comfort level, for pure speed.
The trick is to find the most comfortable setup possible, regardless of speed, for endurance advantages.
The trick is to find the most comfortable possible, combining both.
The tricks go on and on. As many as there are riders, on different bikes, for different reasons.

It's all riding a bicycle. Everyone has their own trick to perform.

There is, basically, large numbers of riders, and a smaller possibility of geometric combinations.
(Relatively speaking).

As the competitive level increases, the rider "pool" gets more similar.
We watch that smallest pool and wonder how we can change to get closer.
Or we don't.

Pretty cool stuff.
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Old 05-27-22, 08:27 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
If the bike does not stay in one piece, better talk to the mechanic.
The club member cited, was a character, every time he got dropped there was a mysterious flat. So much so he was teased if he brought his tacks with him that day.
I don't know what caused the two flats that day at the time-trial, they were both on a back wheel I had not used before which a friend had given me, and at the bike race the second flat was had after a bike-shop at the race running a support service gave me a new inner tube for free and put it in for me and aired up the tire. I had ridden the bike to the event from home to warm up. Have not had a flat while on a bike ride since then, 25 years ago.
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Old 05-27-22, 09:12 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by bamboobike4 View Post
That does not appear logically deducible from the words above.
A stretch from ... eventually get a real racing bike" to "so I don't have to look at your seat clamp any more."
Appears there is an underlying assumption that is not based on the actual words used, while the actual words may not interpret as intended. Anyway.... A rider's body is a collection of levers and pivot points, and a power supply.
The leverages brought to bear are affected by the length of the levers.
A bicycle has 3 contact points, correlating to a rider's body: pedal, saddle, bars.
Those 3 contact points directly affect the leverage that can be brought to bear.
Toss in aerodynamics above a certain threshold, and we're always looking for the best trade-off.
We adjust them all, and often still don't get it right. Maybe almost always not.
The trick is to find the most efficient setup possible, regardless of comfort level, for pure speed.
The trick is to find the most comfortable setup possible, regardless of speed, for endurance advantages.
The trick is to find the most comfortable possible, combining both.
The tricks go on and on. As many as there are riders, on different bikes, for different reasons.
It's all riding a bicycle. Everyone has their own trick to perform.
There is, basically, large numbers of riders, and a smaller possibility of geometric combinations.
(Relatively speaking).As the competitive level increases, the rider "pool" gets more similar.
We watch that smallest pool and wonder how we can change to get closer.Or we don't.Pretty cool stuff.
That was a stab at the of the discussion with a nice mix of competence and style, thank-you.

A few other variables I have thought of are rider weight and bicycle maintenance and setup.

A rider of greater weight could put more power to the pedal of a bicycle than a lighter rider provided they both have enough leg strength to lift themselves off the seat by pushing down on the pedal with one leg, the heavier rider will be able to push down harder without lifting himself up off the seat instead of pushing the pedal down. Once a rider is strong enough to lift themselves off the seat while pedaling they might go faster by wearing a weight pack on their back, which would give the same advantage a recumbent rider has of pushing against their seat-back giving them "unlimited" weight !!!

Weight is only a disadvantage in acceleration or climbing hills, but in holding speed against air-resistance on a flat grade or downhill it would be an advantage, such as in track-racing or a short time-trial on a flat course. If a 50 pound child had the leg-strength of a 200 pound man, they would never be able to go as fast because they could only put about one-quarter the pressure on the pedal down-stroke of a conventional "safety" type bicycle.

On bike maintenance, a great mechanic can have a great advantage over the competition in having the mechanical parts of their bike working to their potential. There are a lot of bicycle riders with zero mechanical ability or understanding, so although they may buy a high-end bicycle, their having to have someone else maintain it will always put them at a disadvantage over those riders who are mechanics and engineers. The layman's bike may not only be mechanically neglected, it may have things done to it that hurt it's efficiency.

Age. In the book Bicycling Science by Frank Rowland Whitt, Breathing performance is cut in half between the ages of 40 and 80 in a healthy adult who exercises. So as you age you are going to get slower and slower so eventually no matter how hard you train you will have trouble keeping up with even casual weekend riders under the age of 60.
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Old 05-28-22, 07:36 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
If the bike does not stay in one piece, better talk to the mechanic.
The club member cited, was a character, every time he got dropped there was a mysterious flat. So much so he was teased if he brought his tacks with him that day.
A guy around here did the same, only his excuse was "dropping the chain"...
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Old 05-29-22, 07:11 PM
  #83  
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I had a nice time on the Huffy today. It was a beautiful day with moderate wind speed and temperatures. I rode over to the 13-odd mile circuit at a local state-park and went around it in the 52-19 eighth gear. I stopped about the 2/3rd point to take off this heavy plaid shirt I had on and stuff it in my messenger bag, took a leak behind some bushes, downed a bottle of water and then got back on the road at the normal pace. At the end of the circuit I paused and thought about going around again and noticed traffic was getting a bit heavier. I saw another cyclist start off around the circuit and decided to follow. There were several automobiles I was riding with and the exhaust smell was worrying, but I passed a few cars and caught up with the other cyclist ahead. They looked good with strong legs, on a nice Specialized with what might be called Tri-bars, a flashing light and some computer equipment on it. I got beside them and said hello and asked them if they raced bicycles, because they surely looked the part, and they said they like doing triathalons, but had three kids and a teaching job and that made it tough to train, and they said it was only their second time out on a bike this year, they said the bicycle was their weak part of a triathalon, which I thought was odd, because running and swimming seems far harder than riding a bike to me. I asked how fast we were going and they said a bit under 19mph. I thought they must just be warming up, and also since they were almost 20 years my junior I was thinking I was going to get dropped at some point in the near future. When they picked up the pace a bit I was making guesses about the speed, calling out to them 19, 20. 21 mph and they said I was spot on with my guesses. I found that as long as I kept my head down and on the drops I kept up with no problem, I was going a bit slower even than on the last circuit, this rider had lots of muscles but not the aerobic ability to keep any higher speed average. I noticed they were pedaling a bit slower than I was, so I suggested they try a gear that would let them spin faster and that they might go faster, and they did, and said that it was easier to hold the speed, but they did not go any faster. When we came to a little rise I told them to speed up when approaching a rise instead of letting it slow you down, but it seemed hard for them. Another larger rise came up that included a bridge crossing over water and I called it out in advance and said to "punch it", which I did and I went on ahead as fast as I could go, up the rise past some other traffic, and down the other side I had to coast a bit as the bike was going faster than the gear I was in would let me comfortably spin, I never changed gears around the circuit but always stayed in the same 52/19 gear. When I looked back to see the other rider they had dropped back quite a ways, so I sat up and took it easy for a while so they could catch up, which they eventually did after a mile or so and they passed and went ahead and I sped up again to keep the pace. Now I had been going fast for about twenty miles and was probably getting tired, but as long as I kept down and on the drops I could still go fine. Where we had two lanes I pulled out and just road abreast, sometimes ahead, sometimes behind depending on traffic. I was tired a bit now and was working to keep up with the Specialized rider but did it, we got to the end of the circuit again and they said their average speed was 18.8mph according to their computer. I figured on my first lap around I had surely done a bit faster. I felt good going up a very steep long hill away from the park back to the city traffic and on to home. It had been a fast ride of about 34 miles. Hopefully if I keep up this type of riding in time I will be able to start going around the circuit on a good day in ninth gear sometime this summer, which I think is a 52/17.
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Old 05-29-22, 08:09 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
Weight is only a disadvantage in acceleration or climbing hills, but in holding speed against air-resistance on a flat grade or downhill it would be an advantage, such as in track-racing.
Makes sense. I was wondering why Eddy Merckx rode a 35 lb Huffy in Mexico City. Now I know!
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Old 05-29-22, 08:37 PM
  #85  
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About rider weight and maximum available power: it's not as if power is only available when pressing down on the pedal. Riders using toe clips and straps, or clip-in pedals, can counter the downward push of one leg with an upward pull on the opposite one. Good pedaling form is a lot more than simple push-pull, however. In other places on bikeforums.net you can find lots of discussions of good pedaling form and the degree of advantage provided (or not) by toe clips and straps or clip-ins. Yes, there are powerful riders who don't use them. I'm not one of them. Ever since learning about serious road biking, I've tried to make efficient use of all the muscles that come into play when trying to apply power all the way around. Evolution has put some constraints on the relative degree to which different muscles can be strengthened by training, but my own history of conditioning means that if I don't use toe clips or clip-in pedals I can't ride nearly as fast or as far. And riding without them doesn't feel as good to me, or as connected to the bike.

If the amount of body weight to counteract the downward push on the pedals were such a controlling factor, then the ranks of professional cyclists should be filled with compact-bodied super heavyweights. If lighter and heavier professional riders were all equally conditioned, then their strength-to-body-weight ratio should be roughly equal, ergo no penalty on these heavier riders when climbing, but on flats and downhills they should consistently leave the lighter ones in the dust. And race reports should be full of analysis and stats relating body weight to race results. That does not appear to be the case.

Last edited by chip.hedler; 05-29-22 at 08:47 PM. Reason: better wording
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Old 05-29-22, 08:48 PM
  #86  
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You need a Nitto 66 to really get the saddle forward. This one has been sitting in my seatpost drawer for a few years since I don't have the need to get farther forward. I picked it up with a few other parts because it is unique.

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Old 05-30-22, 09:29 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by chip.hedler View Post
About rider weight and maximum available power: it's not as if power is only available when pressing down on the pedal. Riders using toe clips and straps, or clip-in pedals, can counter the downward push of one leg with an upward pull on the opposite one. Good pedaling form is a lot more than simple push-pull, however. In other places on bikeforums.net you can find lots of discussions of good pedaling form and the degree of advantage provided (or not) by toe clips and straps or clip-ins. Yes, there are powerful riders who don't use them. I'm not one of them. Ever since learning about serious road biking, I've tried to make efficient use of all the muscles that come into play when trying to apply power all the way around. Evolution has put some constraints on the relative degree to which different muscles can be strengthened by training, but my own history of conditioning means that if I don't use toe clips or clip-in pedals I can't ride nearly as fast or as far. And riding without them doesn't feel as good to me, or as connected to the bike.

If the amount of body weight to counteract the downward push on the pedals were such a controlling factor, then the ranks of professional cyclists should be filled with compact-bodied super heavyweights. If lighter and heavier professional riders were all equally conditioned, then their strength-to-body-weight ratio should be roughly equal, ergo no penalty on these heavier riders when climbing, but on flats and downhills they should consistently leave the lighter ones in the dust. And race reports should be full of analysis and stats relating body weight to race results. That does not appear to be the case.
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Makes sense. I was wondering why Eddy Merckx rode a 35 lb Huffy in Mexico City. Now I know!

Chip, so how far and at what speed are you traveling with your straps/clips? Yesterday on the Huffy I went about 35 miles at 19mph with flat pedals. It would be interesting if you could back up your comments about foot retention with scientific data. The book Bicycling Science by Frank Roland Whitt says on page 63; "professional cyclists using toe straps did not use them to pull upward during the rising stroke.". And it also has a vector diagram showing the force put into the pedals during a rotation showed the cyclist although slightly, still pushing down on the pedal on the upstroke. So thinking and believing that toe-straps are an advantage is one thing, doing scientific testing for data is another. Also it takes more skill and muscle to keep a foot on a pedal that is going eighty or ninety rpm without straps than with them. It is a great book with 352 pages of lots of information and science that undermines most of what bicyclists believe on public forums about pedaling rates, pedaling style, pedal-crank length and dozens of other points.

As far as SurferRosa's comment about Eddie Merckx go, of course a pro is going to use a high-end bicycle, but that does not mean that they had to, and saying that they did is poor logic. Well-known physics and science plainly say that although a bike weighing twice as much will take longer to get to speed, it will take no more energy to keep it at that speed on level ground given the same size wheels and same bearing friction and wind resistance. In an hour ride, give or take, the small distance it takes to get up to speed for either bike will be almost no factor at all, especially since the bicycle is a small percentage of the total bike/rider weight.
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Old 05-30-22, 10:20 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
about Eddie Merckx ... of course a pro is going to use a high-end bicycle, but that does not mean that they had to.
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Old 05-30-22, 01:35 PM
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Old 05-31-22, 08:54 AM
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Here is a great review of scientific studies which shows that the generally accepted notion that toe-clips and clipless pedals are not as essential as most think they are;
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Old 05-31-22, 01:32 PM
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I don't agree with a lot here, without valid reasons why, but than again, I can't ride 35 miles on a Huffy at 19 mph and flat pedals.

1-I've never thought clipless or straps or flats made much difference, but I'm afraid to get dropped in flats and have to explain, because I can't.
2-I've only averaged 19 mph when I had a tailwind or a pace line or it was gonna be far less than 35 miles and I knew I could hold on that long.
3-My opinion is that work is moving an object thru a distance, and a heavy Huffy just seems harder to move over a distance than a petite Pugeot.

I don't do math, so persuasions for me are when a much better rider tells me something, or I read it on the internet.

I believe, below 20 mph, comfort = speed, and I'm in that camp. Fit is everything, after Fitness.
I'd rather climb with a lighter bike, and descend with a heavier one, unless someone else is faster, and then I want their bike.

Keeping it simple.

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Old 05-31-22, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
I

but I passed a few cars and caught up with the other cyclist ahead.

I noticed they were pedaling a bit slower than I was, so I suggested they try a gear that would let them spin faster and that they might go faster, and they did, and said that it was easier to hold the speed, but they did not go any faster.


When we came to a little rise I told them to speed up when approaching a rise instead of letting it slow you down, but it seemed hard for them.

Another larger rise came up that included a bridge crossing over water and I called it out in advance and said to "punch it", which I did and I went on ahead as fast as I could go,

When I looked back to see the other rider they had dropped back quite a ways, so I sat up and took it easy for a while so they could catch up, .

I find it amusing when people overtake me and give me unsolicited advice. Im a trackie and dont have the characteristic whippet thin road racer physique so i guess people may at times assume im a rec. rider out there thrashing about.
Happened to me once on a popular lake road close to my location -- i was spinning an easy gear at about 110 rpm and a gent who had bridged up to me suggested i gear down a bit, it would help me go faster. I literally held up my HRM to show him that it was hovering around 125 and let him know that it was my recovery day and i was just keeping my effort between 120-130 BPM for the most part and have no need to do anything further , and thats when the Cat-6 Bad azz droped the hamer on me , got out of the saddle and started flailing about like MArk Cavendish in a sprint --- i was just thinking "O-------- kay "
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Old 05-31-22, 04:25 PM
  #93  
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There is a saying: Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Fun, though. And, if you saw it on a YouTube video, it must be true.
I agree, you don't, except maybe at low rpm, like climbing a hill, pull up all that much. You pedal circles, kind of like cranking a hand crank, and at higher cadence, it's difficult to do without being clipped in.
My two cents.
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Old 05-31-22, 08:37 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by bamboobike4 View Post
I don't agree with a lot here,
I believe, below 20 mph, comfort = speed, and I'm in that camp. Fit is everything, after Fitness.
.
I guess you are talking about the video comparing pedal types? Comfort is very important for sure. One reason I like my Huffy is that it is the most comfortable bike for me for staying on the drops with my head down, and that certainly equals speed. In the last week I took the Fuji on the same circuit as the Huffy, and it was no faster for me, maybe even a bit slower. It's long head-tube does not let me get the bars as low in relation to the seat so it is less comfortable for me to keep down out of the airstream. I am planning a custom frame with the head-tube length of the Huffy, and the seat-tube length of the Fuji, and the seat-tube angle of my Columbus-tubed 1987 Schwinn SuperSport. I doubt if I will get the frame done this summer though, so the Huffy will be my best ride this year.
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Old 05-31-22, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobbiano View Post
There is a saying: Never argue with an idiot. They'll only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Fun, though. And, if you saw it on a YouTube video, it must be true.
I agree, you don't, except maybe at low rpm, like climbing a hill, pull up all that much. You pedal circles, kind of like cranking a hand crank, and at higher cadence, it's difficult to do without being clipped in.
My two cents.
Thank-you for your two cents, if in fact you were replying to something I put up here, I can not tell.
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Old 05-31-22, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DMC707 View Post
I literally held up my HRM to show him that it was hovering around 125 "
I never trained with any equipment like that, the only time I ever knew my heart-rate was one of the times before I had a heart attack and surgery last year, when I was hospitalized with SVT or A-fib or something, and my heart rate was 220 while resting on my back in the emergency room. It seemed to worry the employees there.

I had a great time riding around the circuit with Julie, we found we knew some of the same bike/tri people, parted with a hand-shake at the end of the ride and said we would keep an eye out for each other for more training fun pulling each other around. If I can work on my running and swimming this summer maybe I will give the local triathalon a go, I think it is in August. The criminals running it want $50 to enter though......
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Old 05-31-22, 08:59 PM
  #97  
Kilroy1988 
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In an issue of Cycling or The Bicycle that I have from the 1950s (not sure which - I have dozens of each) there is a nice article about "ankling," which is the act of rotating the ankles to power down through a pedal stroke by allowing the foot to bend upward and then pushing back with the toes as the pedals rise from the lowest part of the stroke. Essentially this creates a miniature circular motion with the ankles as the pivot point and the pedals mirroring that motion. I do this all the time with clips on my pedals (but no cleats) and find it to be a particularly effective way to spread the tension of pedaling during long-distance rides throughout the muscles of my legs and add a bit of force to the backstroke so as to prevent momentary lapses of power as tensions moves from one leg to the other. I am sure this technique contributes to the relative comfort I felt during a 97-mile ride at a 15mph average pace (including hills) on a high-geared 4-speed bicycle last weekend, for example.

Another, far more important thing I have been trying to do is to concentrate on using my right leg (I am left-handed and my left leg is more powerful than my right) to power through pedal strokes as willfully as I do with my left. Unconsciously I have for years allowed my left leg to bear more of the burden during my rides and although it does not necessarily cause fatigue to come on more quickly with the left, is has prevented my right leg from developing apace - which would undoubtedly allow me to ride even further and faster under whatever conditions.

-Gregory
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Old 06-01-22, 08:10 AM
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smd4
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
The criminals running it want $50 to enter though...
Might want to do a little research to see exactly what it costs to put on a triathlon, before calling the folks who provide this opportunity to you "criminals."
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Old 06-01-22, 09:14 AM
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Whether I, as an older casual rider, can maintain a given speed for a given distance compared to the performance you report, is not germane to this discussion. What is germane is understanding the biomechanics of different pedaling styles and paying attention to the signals we get from our bodies and any data we get, whether from a cyclometer, a WattBike, or some other performance-analysis metering system. And what are you implying by your reference to the "skill and muscle" to keep one's foot on the pedal during the upstroke? Which muscles, in what direction are they exerting force during the upstroke, and how does that force contribute to your forward motion?

It may be that the net force on the pedal for some cyclists during the upstroke may register as a downward vector. But that doesn't negate the benefit to them of exerting an upward pull during that part of the power circle, because you want the least amount of the weight of that leg to be lifted by the downward thrust of the opposite leg. And one-legged pedaling exercises demonstrate that straps or clip-ins do allow you to exert propulsive force on the upstroke.

Serious mountain bike competitors will often ride without straps or clip-ins for a number of different reasons, but I'll speculate that many of them go to clip-ins when they road bike. Any mountain bikers out there who want to report your experiences and opinions?
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Old 06-01-22, 09:21 AM
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I read that a lot of track riders still prefer the old Dura Ace PD-7400 toe strap pedals, as being much harder to brake free from, compared to clipless pedals. Why are these track riders concerned about their cleats releasing, if they don't use any power on the upstroke?
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