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bike fit, check your assumptions

Old 06-01-22, 11:04 AM
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bike fit, check your assumptions

I got bike fit when I bought an 89 miyata 1400 new (last new bike I have bought)

I have carried that fit from bike to bike since then, but did not measure, did by feel and set saddle height to where I thought I had my leg fully extended

fast forward, I am working with a guy on project that involves taking body and bike measurements, he noted it seemed like my seat was low. I sent him a pic of me riding and I could see I was not getting full extension.

raised the saddle 2 cm, first ride to today was eye opening, lots more power and easier to keep cadence up.

my moral, is does not hurt to check "what I have always done"

and since you need a bke pic here is the pic I shared that show leg extension not where it should be
Photographer Drillium Dude

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Old 06-01-22, 11:05 AM
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I had that problem that I traced back to a crappy Wolftooth binder not holding at recommended torque. Looks shiny though.
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Old 06-01-22, 11:22 AM
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I assume that the pros fit their bikes properly and when I watch them on T.V. , I see that there is significant variability in extension, reach, heel drop, etc. I am forever insecure about the proper fit for me on my bikes. But I have settled on some numbers and I measure regularly.

Was that a "bike fitting" in 1989 or did the shop adjust your bike to fit you?
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Old 06-01-22, 11:41 AM
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I have a long and embarrassing history with bike fit. I didn't start getting serious about cycling until I was in my late 30s. In early 2008, I bought a bike based on the sales guy saying "this looks like the right size for you." A year later as I was starting to put in enough miles to develop overuse issues, I went in for a bike fit. They fitter raised my handlebars, brought them closer to me and raised my saddle. At first it felt like I was driving a bus, but in a short while I saw that it was comfortable and I've been using the same basic contact point position every since. What I failed to notice is that while the fitters adjustments made the bike work, I was really riding the wrong size bike.



Compact geometry and threadless stems just look weird anyway, right? So I had no idea and I kept buying bikes that were too small and making adjustments to make them fit. When I started getting into vintage bikes the issue drew more attention to itself.



But that still worked, you know? Since then I've gone from the 54cm shown above to preferring 57 or 58. But I feel like fit on vintage bikes is easier to understand. You can calculate stack and reach with a lot less trigonometry, and the visual cues are clearer. What hasn't changed is that I'm top heavy and the classic racing position is just never going to work for me. I still want the bars higher and closer than the geometry that most bikes are designed for. So I end up with a handful of seatpost and a high stem with short extension and compact bars. I'm still not going to win any awards for the aesthetics of a bike set up the way I like, but at least I have people wondering if the bike is too big for me or too small instead of being certain that it's too small.

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Old 06-01-22, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
I assume that the pros fit their bikes properly and when I watch them on T.V. , I see that there is significant variability in extension, reach, heel drop, etc. I am forever insecure about the proper fit for me on my bikes. But I have settled on some numbers and I measure regularly.

Was that a "bike fitting" in 1989 or did the shop adjust your bike to fit you?
that was buy the bike do a fitting to adjust things including clipless cleat position with funky wands attached to the pedals

i am doing a good set of measurements from now on
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Old 06-01-22, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dylansbob View Post
I had that problem that I traced back to a crappy Wolftooth binder not holding at recommended torque. Looks shiny though.
I have that problem on one bike with a crappy aluminum beer can shim
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Old 06-01-22, 11:58 AM
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I was lucky early on. I was friends with a guy who owned a bike shop near where I lived and fitted both my wife and myself when we bought our bikes. He raced and built racing frames in the seventies and eighties. We also took cycling class at the local Community College and that helped out. It really does make a difference and now with my age , I am starting to need a closer handlebar to seat fit because of my shoulders , so I am adjusting for that as I age.
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Old 06-01-22, 12:00 PM
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Wow, that's a significant difference.
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Old 06-01-22, 12:06 PM
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It is still somewhat elusive to me. I think I have the right saddle position, sometimes, at least height. I am not sure about fore and aft. I think the stem is messing up finding my solution.
I have read lots of suggestions and opinions including the fit forum.
At least I have a good idea of what frame range fits, 58-61 with 59 beign optimal.
Sadly, I discovered my Colnago is just out of range. I refuse to replace it at this point. Lots of sentimental crap associated with it. I may get over it at some point. At least I am entertaining the thought. Finding an early 1980's Colnago in 59 is not easy.
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Old 06-01-22, 12:17 PM
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I've dialed back my overall length between saddle and pedals by a few centimeters over the past decade after I began having trouble with hyperextending my knees from time to time during workouts or while doing manual labor. I do notice with another 1-2cm I feel like my leg extension is providing a bit more power and momentum, but I am not sure it's worth the risk of overextending my knees. I test it by pushing the pedal as far down as possible and then extending my leg with my ankle pushing down so that the toes bear up on the pedal. If my knee is still not in a position where it can get locked up I am good.

I saw a fellow cruising on a nice mountain bike down by the Santa Monica Pier and his saddle was so high that he had to tip-toe to get his full rotation on the crankset. I wanted to scream out at him that he would regret that someday...

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Old 06-01-22, 01:35 PM
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I'm not sure I'd be any closer to a good fit if I paid someone. Instead, I've gone through bikes like LP's in the cutout bin. There sure has been some fun in that.

As my mileage increased, my fit got a bit smaller. As my age increased, my fit got a bit smaller. If I age more and ride more, I'm may have to start over.
Again.

I went to a bike shop, when I rode a 56cm, and looked at a 52cm Colnago. It was the shop's only Colnago for sale, and he said "you're a 52cm."

I didn't believe him.

He stopped selling Colnagos, began selling Torellis. I went back in, he had 2 54cm in the showroom, and he said "you're a 54cm."

I didn't believe him then, either.

I don't think he was that wrong; I just needed a more transparent persuasion.

Fit hasn't changed, but achieving it seems to never stop.

At least I know my TT size, and I can fix everything after that. I think.

Unless it's red. Then I can make it fit.

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Old 06-01-22, 03:35 PM
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I learned, long ago, to not pay attention to what the bike fit experts had to say. I set my bike(s) to what feels good and that's good enough for me. Also...

I am an old man, now, and what felt good years ago does not work anymore. Hence, I still don't pay attention to the bike fit experts but still follow my "if it feels good to me" rule.

That said, I do not mean to offend any of the bike fit experts. I am sure that most of them know what they are doing, but none of them are familiar with the way that I ride.
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Old 06-01-22, 07:46 PM
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My journey has been rather extreme, in my twenties I rode frames sized from 49 to 52 cm and having first taken to cycling in the nineties I brought my “smaller is better” informed ‘mountain bike action’ subscriber ideas to the road. Now at forty and almost exclusively riding C and V machines I’ve come to prefer frames around 58 to 60 CM. I no longer care about stand over clearance beyond being able to safely dismount from the pedals and straddle the frame with my feet flat on the ground. A taller frame keeps the handlebars at a desirable height and eliminates the need for a sky high seat post. One bicycle I ride quite a bit is 62cm but due the low bottom bracket height is effectively several CM shorter than it looks, I’ve tried to explain this to several carbon jocks that while riding the local Ferry always feel the need to inform me that my bike is too large. One such gentleman who was nearly the same height and arm/leg/torso proportions to me had a composite wonder bike with a much lower slanting top tube but as it was parked next to my bike I observed his handlebar/ crank/ seat height and spacing looked pretty nearly identical.
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Old 06-02-22, 08:04 AM
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I'm small, ride 52cm-54cm frames with no problems.. I have one 51cm with a 55cm TT that works, don't understand this, but I like the bike so may be biased. Also have a 55cm and a 56 cm that are OK for 1-2 hours. They both have seat tubes which extend beyond the TT.

I use a center of BB to top of saddle dimension, then adjust for height and reach until it feels right. When I reach the"feels right" spot, the saddle height dimension varies from bike to bike over about 3/4". This is puzzling but it works for me. Advancing age has required a taller stem and even upright bars on some, but not all of my bikes. Hope to pedal my way all the way out to glory. Don
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Old 06-02-22, 08:44 AM
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Maybe place your bike on trainer and take some video of yourself pedaling to get an idea of what your current fit looks like to an outside observer.

Back in the day when I worked at an aquatics center and swam a lot more, one of the people I worked with mentioned one of my legs was making an error in the kick during the breast stroke.
I had no idea of it since it felt like the movement of both legs was symmetrical.

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Old 06-02-22, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
I have that problem on one bike with a crappy aluminum beer can shim
Drink better beer.
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Old 06-02-22, 09:10 AM
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2cm is quite the change, almost an inch! I usually adjust by a couple millimeters at a time and do a test ride.

It's definitely nice to have a riding buddy (in person or virtual) who can check out your fit while riding. I learned that I had been setting my saddle too high from a randonneuring friend -- she noticed I was pointing my toes down and rocking my hips while on a brevet, and adjustments made a nice difference.
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Old 06-02-22, 09:39 AM
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A couple of years ago I was having achilles tendon soreness while upping my mileage in the springtime. @northbend told me to lower my saddle, and as I was coming into form, I could raise it a bit at a time. I followed his advaice, the pain went away, and I later raised the saddle a bit at a time as my mileage went up.
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Old 06-02-22, 09:56 AM
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A bunch of my bikes have the same brand and Model of saddle, very easy to set up equal bike to bike, provided same length cranks.
Those do vary a bit, and I account for them. Most have the same pedal system, for the bikes with different, I measure from the insole of the shoe toe clip pedals to clipless, I think shoe thickness matters and will account for a few mm here and there.
as to setback, 3 o'clock crank level to the ground, a mark on my knee and a second person with a plumb bob. This really is necessary when a different saddle is used. With my go-to saddle, just measure nose of saddle setback to the BB center.
Many have the same bars, easy there. for the different, it takes more effort. Some bars have a different forward "throw" The surprise was a bike with a shorter top tube and on that I use the shortest stem of the fleet, the bars have much more forward throw, so I use the hips to hands on the hoods measure, requires cycling shorts, a section of tape and a dot.

With all that, I do have a few bikes that are different, feeling stiff? use one with slightly smaller dimensions.

A flat bar bike is another story, saddle the same, but a decision to be made as to how far forward, I use a helper to image me on the bike. Even video, do I look comfortable?

Positioning is dynamic, I ride a bit more compact than when I was a young man, gravity strikes back.

When I see saddles that are definitely nose down or up... there is an attempt to overcome a more basic problem.
nose down on a sprung saddle is OK as when seated the saddle changes orientation.
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Old 06-02-22, 10:51 AM
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Old school - - with HEELS on the pedals raise the saddle until you have to rock the pelvis to keep contact with the pedals. That's maximum extension. +/-1/4" should be just fine.

Works for me and I've had two knee surgeries thanks to motorcycles
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Old 06-02-22, 10:57 AM
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My subjective opinion is that it all starts with the relationship between pelvis and BB, which must account for femur length, thus crank arm length. This is more about seat tube angle and saddle forward/back adjustment (assuming you've figured out the right arm length by using several clues). IMHO ALL bikes have an ideal stem length that goes with the front end geometry (within 1cm) and thus stem length IS NOT a place to adjust "rider compartment". It's therefore the top tube that needs adjusting. This is why tt length is so important to those who understand this, as obviously this tube isn't adjustable. It has to be intentionally selected.
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Old 06-02-22, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bamboobike4 View Post
Drink better beer.
well played
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Old 06-02-22, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
2cm is quite the change, almost an inch! I usually adjust by a couple millimeters at a time and do a test ride.

It's definitely nice to have a riding buddy (in person or virtual) who can check out your fit while riding. I learned that I had been setting my saddle too high from a randonneuring friend -- she noticed I was pointing my toes down and rocking my hips while on a brevet, and adjustments made a nice difference.
it was, but I looked at my pics from cino and decided to go big and could go down from there. So far it has felt really good
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Old 06-02-22, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
A couple of years ago I was having achilles tendon soreness while upping my mileage in the springtime. @northbend told me to lower my saddle, and as I was coming into form, I could raise it a bit at a time. I followed his advaice, the pain went away, and I later raised the saddle a bit at a time as my mileage went up.
This is more common than I ever thought it would be.
I built two bikes for a guy who said he'd been fitted by a shop.
I asked about cleat placement. He said they didn't cover that.
I never gave it a second thought.
He had both Achilles replaced with tendons from his big toes.
Did not ride again.

When I ran/jogged, it was common to get inflamed in the tendon sheath.
Sports docs simply said "relax the angle," which sounds a lot like the advice you got.
A couple of us ran in combat boots for a week until it cleared up.
It was in a book called Flanagan's Run, which had a lot of old-school injury remedies.
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