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brake caliper suggestions?

Old 06-08-22, 04:40 PM
  #26  
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Single pivot - Shimano BR-6400. If I remember correctly, there were short reach and long reach versions (49mm and 57mm max). They have additional sleeves in the brake holder bolt slots and these might have to be removed before installing some brake holders / pads. Very good, personally I think they are not worse than any dual pivot brakes I used (Shimano BR-1055, various Tektro. Miche Performance ). I have the long reach ones and use them with Kool Stop Dura 2. Oh, I don't use aero levers, but they will be compatible with Shimano ones you have.
Dual pivot - Miche Performance brakes are quite nice and look alright too. In my opinion they are either made by Tektro for Miche or Miche makes them based on Tektro design and perhaps license. They are long reach as well. Tektro brakes are quite alright as well (don't remember which model I used) - these are not too pricey. With Tektro, you will find something with any reach you might need. Shimano makes some budget dual pivot brakes (historically, RX100 grup, was it?) which are also longer reach.

Centre pull - Weinmann Vainqueur. Fantastic brakes, easy to find, not too bad to restore and will stop you on a penny. Disclaimer: no idea whether they are compatible with aero levers and also, I use them with KoolStop Dura 2. I guess they will be alright with any modern compound. These also don't come with recessed nut mounting, though it's possible to use them on a frame prepared for this standard (you need some sort of sleeve that would fit around the bolt and inside the mounting hole)
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Old 06-08-22, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
I must be the only person in the world to have removed dual pivot brakes and put singles on.


BTW I am looking for a good condition red calipers, recessed.
I switched from dual pivots to BR-6400 and actually preferred the single pivot ones. These are waiting in a box for the next build now and I've currently switched to centre pull. Also no regrets. My conclusion after daily use is that centre pulls are probably the best in terms of stopping power though BR-6400 aren't far behind and seem to feel a bit nicer (and are lighter as well)
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Old 06-08-22, 06:25 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by VintageSteelEU View Post
I switched from dual pivots to BR-6400 and actually preferred the single pivot ones. These are waiting in a box for the next build now and I've currently switched to centre pull. Also no regrets. My conclusion after daily use is that centre pulls are probably the best in terms of stopping power though BR-6400 aren't far behind and seem to feel a bit nicer (and are lighter as well)
I have always liked centerpulls and have them (almost all Weinmann Vainqueur 999s in 610 and 750 length) on all of my other road bikes, but this one begs for sidepulls.
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Old 06-08-22, 06:35 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
I just don't understand this at all.

I've never had trouble with Campagnolo Nuovo Record brakes. They stop the bike. They are easy to modulate if you want to slow or decrease your rate of acceleration. I can operate them from the drops or the tops.

Go back to the original Campagnolo levers and ditch the aero cable routing and levers.


P.S. - that rear cable routing does not look right.
The original brakes were Modolos. The reach on the levers is simply too long for me to grab quickly and firmly in a panic stop. I have the same problem with Mafac and Campag. levers. The two benefits of the Shimano aero levers are that they -- like the classic Weinmann 999s I have on my other road bikes -- fit my hands properly and that aero levers offer about 15% more leverage than non-aero. I am satisfied with the braking power on every other bike I own, particularly the mountain bike, but also any of the Weinmann centerpull road bikes. (Since I almost never use the rear brake by itself, and often use just the front, I had failed to notice that the rear brake effectiveness of the UO-8 had deteriorated significantly. All-new cable and housing brought it right back.)

Please explain your closing sentence about the rear brake cable. The guides are along the top of the top tube, the housing curves smoothly down to meet the rear caliper, and I have just enough loop in front to accommodate lock-to-lock steering.
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Old 06-08-22, 06:50 PM
  #30  
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Your other problem is the anodized rims (at least I think that's what I am seeing in the picture). Rims with machined side walls stop dramatically better.
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Old 06-08-22, 07:41 PM
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I have a set of the Dia Compe BRS 100 dual pivots on a bike with Microshift brifters. Short fingers also. Plenty of stopping power from the hoods with 2-3 fingers on the top of the lever below the hinge/pivot. Not much effort required, even from that position. Easy on the eyes as well. The link has a reach chart for the various models.

https://www.diacompe.com.tw/product/brs100/

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Old 06-09-22, 08:49 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Please explain your closing sentence about the rear brake cable. The guides are along the top of the top tube, the housing curves smoothly down to meet the rear caliper, and I have just enough loop in front to accommodate lock-to-lock steering.
I think your cabling is fine. I've seen a lot of folks who like to see big loops of extra friction-inducing cable.

On my own bike I try to make the housing as short as practicable, allowing for smooth, direct curves to the brake caliper, and enough up front to turn the bars.
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Old 06-09-22, 01:39 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
I have always liked centerpulls and have them (almost all Weinmann Vainqueur 999s in 610 and 750 length) on all of my other road bikes, but this one begs for sidepulls.
BR-6400 then. I have the whole group (save for aero levers, which I don't use, seat post, which is difficult to find in diameter I would need, and for the BB, which doesn't come in Swiss threading) so I got the calipers initially just for the aesthetics, but was pleasantly surprised. I was expecting they will be a lot of hard work to center and in terms of stopping power, but I was very happy with them.
There are also BR-1050 which seem very similar, but haven't tried them.
If you need dual pivots, Shimano BR-1055 are also very good and come with 49 and 57mm reach. There are also BR-6403, which I had at some point and they seem alright, though the reach was too short for my bicycle, so they had to go. These are used components (which I generally prefer), their availability may vary. If you need something quick and without breaking the bank, Miche Performance would be my next choice. Good reach (41-57mm) for older and newer frames, good clearance for mudguards. These are definitely heavier than Shimano BR-6400 and BR-1055.

I should be testing Weinmann 605 with modern pads in a week or so, but these are pre-aero levers, so probably wouldn't work that great.
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Old 06-09-22, 01:53 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Thank you, everyone. It looks like we have consensus. I'm going brake caliper shopping. I had a scary experience with Shimano pads on the Campag. calipers (actually keep creeping forward with brakes full-on during a descent under foggy conditions), but KoolStop pads on Shimano calipers should be a much different story.
That'll do the trick for sure.

Dual pivots of any brand or model level will be way stronger than any single pivot side pull. And then the Koolstop salmon pads to avoid galling the heck out of the rims plus give you more stopping power for the same pull on top of that. The combo of dual pivots plus KS salmon's will feel magical.

The fancier the model level of the calipers might save you a few grams and at the same time MIGHT feel slightly firmer. But mostly the grams saved will be at the expense of grams removed from your wallet too....
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Old 06-09-22, 01:55 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee View Post
Your other problem is the anodized rims (at least I think that's what I am seeing in the picture). Rims with machined side walls stop dramatically better.

If commuting in sloppy conditions or trail riding the anodized rims are soon converted to "machined" in any event....
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Old 06-09-22, 05:03 PM
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I regard this thread as official permission to ditch the sub-par oem calipers on at least one bike in the stable and go splurge.
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Old 06-09-22, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VintageSteelEU View Post
I should be testing Weinmann 605 with modern pads in a week or so, but these are pre-aero levers, so probably wouldn't work that great.
I have Weinmann 605s on my Moto Grand Record and I was shocked (in a good way) by their performance with Kool Stop pads. Much better than I expected from knockoff Campy Record sidepulls. Id even say they are superior to their inspiration. Im using them with the original drilled Weinmann levers.
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Old 06-09-22, 06:35 PM
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Does anyone have experience or feedback on the Campagnolo Veloce dual pivots that seem to be widely available? I would imagine the tech was probably perfected by the time this feature came down to the lower-tier gruppo.
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Old 06-09-22, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by leftthread View Post
I regard this thread as official permission to ditch the sub-par oem calipers on at least one bike in the stable and go splurge.
Just don't give your wife our locations and send her out when the fecal matter impacts the rotary atmospheric distributor....

Panzerwagon, my findings were that any dual pivot at any level is better than single pivot types at least for power. Now as for wear and lifespan and how easy it is to center up the arms? That's another story. But at the time I got them the Tektro's were the cheapest of the cheap duals. If they were a touch more difficult to set up then it wasn't anything that I noticed. The changeover in both cases for me went very easily. And the upgrade put a serious smile on my face.
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Old 06-09-22, 07:51 PM
  #40  
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Big fan of the 6500 brakes here. I use them with BL-R400 levers and Ultegra pad sets. Just outstanding. And I'll say that while I am a big fan of Kool Stop products and own several, the upper-level Shimano pads are easily just as good. Those lower level, molded one piece Shimano pads aren't that good.

Also have a Sora R3000 set that I upgraded to Ultegra pads. Also outstanding brakes.

And then there's the Campagnolo Veloce dual pivots on my Cannondale. I believe I may have Ultegra pads on those too. Also outstanding.

These are all on machined sidewall rims.
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Old 06-09-22, 08:22 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
The reach on the levers is simply too long for me to grab quickly and firmly in a panic stop.

Please explain your closing sentence about the rear brake cable. The guides are along the top of the top tube, the housing curves smoothly down to meet the rear caliper, and I have just enough loop in front to accommodate lock-to-lock steering.

In thinking about this thread, I knew it had to be a hand size/reach problem. At least, that was all I could come up with. I have big hands, so it's not an issue for me.

In the photo, the cable looks wavy along the top tube. Then it ducks down to the rear brake very quickly and enters the caliper at a fairly steep angle. I'm thinking not enough housing (too tight) and friction. I'm sure you are in a better position than I to assess this.

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Old 06-10-22, 06:42 AM
  #42  
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Dual pivots are designed to work best with aero levers.
Single pivots work best with non aero levers.
Neither generation of engineers where illiterate.
The cable entry changed so the caliper had to as well.
But there was also a crossover period when it got messy.
People have been using levers since the same time they figured out how to shade the Sun from there eyes. And there is nothing new.
All brake systems are designed to a price and rider type.
Some just to save money. As an example a kids bike where the clamp is one piece and the clamp bolt must go between the lever and the handlebar.
That moves the lever further away. Not ideal in my mind but it was cheaper if less effective. But a design engineers thought good enough.
In the old days the clamp was two pieces and the clamp bolt was behind the handle bar and the lever could now be closer to the bar and still pull enough
Use matched levers and calipers with good pads and clean rims set up for your hand size and speed. That's the best combo.
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Old 06-10-22, 05:36 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by C9H13N View Post
I have Weinmann 605s on my Moto Grand Record and I was shocked (in a good way) by their performance with Kool Stop pads. Much better than I expected from knockoff Campy Record sidepulls. Id even say they are superior to their inspiration. Im using them with the original drilled Weinmann levers.
Are you using original pad holders or some modern ones? I'm thinking what to fit right now. I do have some vintage holders and Scott Malthausen pads, but these holders don't seem to be very firm (I do have the tyre guides). So now I'm thinking about going with Shimano style holders and pads.
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Old 06-11-22, 06:18 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by panzerwagon View Post
Does anyone have experience or feedback on the Campagnolo Veloce dual pivots that seem to be widely available? I would imagine the tech was probably perfected by the time this feature came down to the lower-tier gruppo.
Excellent stoppers, doesn't have a quick release on the calipers. One of the more clever brake cable clamping mechs though. Very robust.

Campy's brifters have the quick release piece (the nub on the lever). You can mess with using the barrel adjuster and use an inline cable adjuster and get pretty decent results, but if you are not using Campy levers with quick release, you are better off with the Shimanos (I like the 6400 version and 6500 versions of Ultegra).

You can also pair the Campy's with the very good Tektro levers...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/22368897219...EaAvOzEALw_wcB
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Old 06-11-22, 06:26 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Thank you, everyone. It looks like we have consensus. I'm going brake caliper shopping. I had a scary experience with Shimano pads on the Campag. calipers (actually keep creeping forward with brakes full-on during a descent under foggy conditions), but KoolStop pads on Shimano calipers should be a much different story.
Because I'm still on the pads for Weinmann 605 conundrum, Campagnolo and Shimano use different standard holders and inserts (which I found out by buying campy ones by accident and then having almost no clearance between them and the rim after installation). Campy ones are more chunky - go nearer the rim, with Shimano ones there is more of a gap between the rim and the pad on the same calipers. If you had Campagnolo calipers, Shimano pads will just not make full contact with the rim.
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Old 06-11-22, 10:26 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by VintageSteelEU View Post
Because I'm still on the pads for Weinmann 605 conundrum, Campagnolo and Shimano use different standard holders and inserts (which I found out by buying campy ones by accident and then having almost no clearance between them and the rim after installation). Campy ones are more chunky - go nearer the rim, with Shimano ones there is more of a gap between the rim and the pad on the same calipers. If you had Campagnolo calipers, Shimano pads will just not make full contact with the rim.
Point well taken, but I did verify good pad-to-rim contact in all cases. The Shimano pads were downright scary. In all situations and on all types of rims and brake calipers, KoolStop salmon pads have always served me well.
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Old 06-11-22, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by John E View Post
Thank you, everyone. It looks like we have consensus. I'm going brake caliper shopping. I had a scary experience with Shimano pads on the Campag. calipers (actually keep creeping forward with brakes full-on during a descent under foggy conditions), but KoolStop pads on Shimano calipers should be a much different story.
Sounds like brake pads are backwards. The "open end" of the pad needs to face the rear of the bike. If you put rear pads on the front, and front pads on the rear. you will often have the open end facing forward. This allows the pad to shift forward.
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Old 06-11-22, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by C9H13N View Post
I have Weinmann 605s on my Moto Grand Record and I was shocked (in a good way) by their performance with Kool Stop pads. Much better than I expected from knockoff Campy Record sidepulls. Id even say they are superior to their inspiration. Im using them with the original drilled Weinmann levers.
I have 605's I picked up on ebay probably 10+ years ago for my '72 Bottecchia which I'm trying to get back up and running. Original center pulls went MIA. I would like to replace the old pads and the Kool Stop pads look like a good way to go. Did you use the Weinmann X replacement pads and if so are they hard to install? My metal pad holders are closed on both ends. Been enjoying and learning a lot here and appreciate whatever help I can get.
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Old 06-11-22, 08:11 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by MasiMoe View Post
I have 605's I picked up on ebay probably 10+ years ago for my '72 Bottecchia which I'm trying to get back up and running. Original center pulls went MIA. I would like to replace the old pads and the Kool Stop pads look like a good way to go. Did you use the Weinmann X replacement pads and if so are they hard to install? My metal pad holders are closed on both ends. Been enjoying and learning a lot here and appreciate whatever help I can get.
I used the Weinmann X Kool Stops. My holders are also enclosed on all 4 sides. To get the old pad out, I clamped the long sides of the holder in a padded vise, then clamped the old pad with vise-grips and twisted it back and forth until it came out. I installed the new pad by wetting the pad and holder with soapy water, setting one edge of the pad in the holder, then pushing down on the other edge of the pad with a plastic putty knife. Neither job gave me any trouble.
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Old 06-11-22, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by VintageSteelEU View Post
Are you using original pad holders or some modern ones? I'm thinking what to fit right now. I do have some vintage holders and Scott Malthausen pads, but these holders don't seem to be very firm (I do have the tyre guides). So now I'm thinking about going with Shimano style holders and pads.
I have the original holders with tire guides and the Weinmann X pads.
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