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Ishiwata Trek Fat Tire Project

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Ishiwata Trek Fat Tire Project

Old 06-27-22, 07:14 PM
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Ishiwata Trek Fat Tire Project

Hey all! Long time since I've been over this way.

I am working on a 40 year old project that I hope to be a fun fat tire flier. I'm wondering if there is a solution out there that I am unaware of. Maybe a different band clamp cable guide?

The bike in question utilized a DT mounted cable guide for both the front and rear derailleurs. RD cable runs along the top of the DS chainstay. FD routing is full cable/housing from the guide to the FD itself.

I am wanting to use a bottom pull FD. Other than running the original guide for the RD and an under BB guide for the FD - other options? I'll be using DT shifters.

Here's the bike in question after some persuading getting the stuck quill stem out.


Last edited by AngryScientist; 06-28-22 at 07:05 AM.
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Old 06-27-22, 07:16 PM
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here's the parts

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Old 06-27-22, 07:16 PM
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That's a hell of a derailleur shift lever you got there.
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Old 06-27-22, 07:30 PM
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Hey Nick, I think this Campy guide might be what you need if I read your description right. I’m sure other brands have similar parts.

https://velobase.com/ViewComponent.a...=103&AbsPos=37




As an aside, your “persuader” is pretty impressive.
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Old 06-27-22, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
That's a hell of a derailleur shift lever you got there.
I see a new avatar in your future.
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Old 06-27-22, 08:41 PM
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Like this


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Old 06-27-22, 10:58 PM
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The front derailleur in your picture is bottom pull and has a housing stop already.

Do you want to use a different bottom pull FD with no housing stop? You’ll need the Campy 626 pictured above. There is no cheap substitute.
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Old 06-28-22, 05:43 AM
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How they did it on my 970 Trek. Special outer housing on FD instead of clamp and inner clamped below. Housing moves the FD, not the inner


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Old 06-28-22, 07:02 AM
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Interesting! Thanks guys. I think I'm just going to go with the simpler solution of under the BB routing. I'll have to drill and tap a hole, but that's no big deal really.

Frame is an 82 Trek of Ishiwata 022 tubing. Originally for 27" wheels, but with 700c wheels and mid reach brakes easily clears some nice wide rubber.

Maybe I'll change the title and document the whole process here so others can follow along with my process.

Here's a shot of the generous tire clearance

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Old 06-28-22, 08:11 AM
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Hmm, Can anyone tell me how to change the actual thread title ? I can change the 1st post title but not the board facing title?
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Old 06-28-22, 08:34 AM
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It isn't possible for mere mortals. You will have to ask someone in charge.

It is nice to see I am not the only angry scientist who spent $175 on a frame pump.
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Old 06-28-22, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
It isn't possible for mere mortals. You will have to ask someone in charge.

It is nice to see I am not the only angry scientist who spent $175 on a frame pump.
Got it, thanks.

Frame pumps for life here!
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Old 06-28-22, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by C9H13N View Post
The front derailleur in your picture is bottom pull and has a housing stop already.

Do you want to use a different bottom pull FD with no housing stop? You’ll need the Campy 626 pictured above. There is no cheap substitute.
well, yes
and no.
To split some hairs here,the Campy unit is the best and most commonly available, but there are others such as the Zeus, very much a Campy clone and Huret both of which will be harder to find and probably cost more than the already pricey Campy, if you did find them.
Also the clunky Simplex that has breakaway Delrin parts, not even worth looking for but probably could get for free if you found one.
You'd think that Shimano would have made thousands of these guides, yet I can't recall ever seeing one!

So the OP is correct that since he wants to use a bottom-pull FD with NO cable housing, the cheaper route is the plastic under BB shell bit, once you have a hole drilled. It doesn't HAVE to be tapped for threading since some of the guides snap into a plain hole...but I'd tap it.

The small problem you'll now have is this routes your RD cable to BELOW the chainstay, and the OP's frame has cable stop on the TOP of that stay. So if you don't want to braze one the simple fix is a clamp-on cable stop, and that doesn't have to be Campy or any pricey thing. In fact I have a small collection of mostly SunTour but a few other brands of these and can part with one for the cost of shipping but I bet any co-op has bins full of them.
These were generally intended to mount so the cable was on top of the chainstay, but nothing prevents them mounted "upside down" and I have done it dozens of times, works fine. Just have the machine screw above rather than below the stay.

Last edited by unworthy1; 06-28-22 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 06-28-22, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
That's a hell of a derailleur shift lever you got there.
Does it index?
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Old 06-28-22, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AngryScientist View Post
Hmm, Can anyone tell me how to change the actual thread title ? I can change the 1st post title but not the board facing title?
Click on the lower left hand red dot in your original post (hovering over it, "Report Post" will appear).



Form will pop up, add your request, and it gets on the mods list of things to do. Our moderators do not scan through posts looking for rule breakers. Replying to a thread asking for the mods to do something will probably not get you anywhere, unless one happens to be reading it. Using the "Report Post" button will their attention.
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Old 06-28-22, 08:06 PM
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Oh no, Angry Scientist! That 82 Ishiwata Trek may have a “death fork”. I too have an 82 412 model and am planning a build. I’m not particularly concerned as mine has no rust. Don’t mean to send you down a rabbit hole, but many posts on this. Just a heads up in case you are the nervous type. Research to me was not conclusive regarding the whole batch and various conditions of preservation or use.
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Old 06-29-22, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sd5782 View Post
Oh no, Angry Scientist! That 82 Ishiwata Trek may have a “death fork”. I too have an 82 412 model and am planning a build. I’m not particularly concerned as mine has no rust. Don’t mean to send you down a rabbit hole, but many posts on this. Just a heads up in case you are the nervous type. Research to me was not conclusive regarding the whole batch and various conditions of preservation or use.

Death fork?? I'll have to do some research I suppose, but by all indications the frame and fork appear in good shape with little rust, but thanks for the heads up, I'll see what I can find.
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Old 06-29-22, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryScientist View Post
Hey all! Long time since I've been over this way.

I am working on a 40 year old project that I hope to be a fun fat tire flier. I'm wondering if there is a solution out there that I am unaware of. Maybe a different band clamp cable guide?

The bike in question utilized a DT mounted cable guide for both the front and rear derailleurs. RD cable runs along the top of the DS chainstay. FD routing is full cable/housing from the guide to the FD itself.

I am wanting to use a bottom pull FD. Other than running the original guide for the RD and an under BB guide for the FD - other options? I'll be using DT shifters.

Here's the bike in question after some persuading getting the stuck quill stem out.

I see you have found the right tool for the job!
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Old 06-29-22, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by sd5782 View Post
Oh no, Angry Scientist! That 82 Ishiwata Trek may have a “death fork”. I too have an 82 412 model and am planning a build. I’m not particularly concerned as mine has no rust. Don’t mean to send you down a rabbit hole, but many posts on this. Just a heads up in case you are the nervous type. Research to me was not conclusive regarding the whole batch and various conditions of preservation or use.
There are many posts, but how many actual fork failures have been presented? I suspect those two numbers are hugely separate, in value.

One broken fork in 200 posts represents 0.5% evidenced failure rate. Much too large for a product design success, but we have nothing to say there will be more evidenced failures if there were 10,000 posts and reports. From Vintage Trek we can estimate how many were serialized and presumably sold. I haven't looked for how many individual breakages we may have in the BF record, but ...

To say a particular fork design carries death in some way, suggests a systematic fault in design or execution exists, which by its nature is present in a large proportion of samples, because they are mass-produced. One thing about good factories that make ever sample the same way, if something is wrong with one and it is systematic, it's wrong with all of them. Due to usage variations (not all lightweight Treks were, for example, used as luggage transport at places like Mackinaw Island with >300# of load, in fact I've seen mainly heavy duty bikes like Worksmans), they won't all fail at the same time, but a BF reader can expect a true death fork to fail, if not actually kill. But one can't identify this situation without knowing why and how a sample failed, at least.

So it takes a lot of samples to identify a high proportion of failures, and failure analysis to identify how it happened. Do we have those capabilities?

I don't. I know where they can be found but it ain't here, unless one of owns such a lab and can commit resources.
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Old 06-29-22, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AngryScientist View Post
Here's a shot of the generous tire clearance

700x33.X is nice, but have you considered 650B?
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Old 06-29-22, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
700x33.X is nice, but have you considered 650B?
Got that base covered. Speaking of death forks...



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Old 06-29-22, 08:18 AM
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Oh yes on the hype on the fork on the Trek. I was not insinuating, just passing along some info. There are lots of posts, and it was quite a topic and I came to the same conclusion as Road Fan. Actually, the death fork comment was tongue in cheek.

Last edited by sd5782; 06-29-22 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Added comment
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Old 06-30-22, 11:04 AM
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Got the frame all cleaned up, touched up the paint chips. Coated with automotive ceramic wax and blasted the inside of all the tubes with corrosion inhibitor. Some parts should be rolling in this week.

The 40 year old metallic black still shines pretty good in the sun once the wax brought the color back out!

Next step: Drilling out the backside of the brake bosses to accept recessed nuts.



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Old 06-30-22, 05:27 PM
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More progress!

Drilled the front and rear brake bridges to allow recessed nutted brakes. Usual process, no problem with the right tools.

I have had sets of the TRP mid reach brakes in black, but never a pair in silver until today. dang. these are really elegant, nicely finished brakes. big fan!

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Old 07-01-22, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
well, yes
and no.
To split some hairs here,the Campy unit is the best and most commonly available, but there are others such as the Zeus, very much a Campy clone and Huret both of which will be harder to find and probably cost more than the already pricey Campy, if you did find them.
Also the clunky Simplex that has breakaway Delrin parts, not even worth looking for but probably could get for free if you found one.
You'd think that Shimano would have made thousands of these guides, yet I can't recall ever seeing one!

So the OP is correct that since he wants to use a bottom-pull FD with NO cable housing, the cheaper route is the plastic under BB shell bit, once you have a hole drilled. It doesn't HAVE to be tapped for threading since some of the guides snap into a plain hole...but I'd tap it.

The small problem you'll now have is this routes your RD cable to BELOW the chainstay, and the OP's frame has cable stop on the TOP of that stay. So if you don't want to braze one the simple fix is a clamp-on cable stop, and that doesn't have to be Campy or any pricey thing. In fact I have a small collection of mostly SunTour but a few other brands of these and can part with one for the cost of shipping but I bet any co-op has bins full of them.
These were generally intended to mount so the cable was on top of the chainstay, but nothing prevents them mounted "upside down" and I have done it dozens of times, works fine. Just have the machine screw above rather than below the stay.
Isn’t it an even cheaper solution to cut a pair of brake cable outer housings (or just one if you only really need to guide the FD?), hold it under the BB shell, thread in the FD or RD cable, and attach the cable and adjust it? You’ll still need a bottom cable housing stop at the end of the DS chainstay. But if you kept scraps of outer brake cable and bought the lined stuff, like Jagwire, that part of the project should be essentially free.

What year and model is that frame? I want to look it up in Vintage Trek. Can you share the serial number?
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