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-   -   Frame identification (https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1254302-frame-identification.html)

T-Mar 07-01-22 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22560332)
I still have a bunch of 1" threaded steerers that came from Miele. They include several brands including several with internal ribbing. Columbus steerers are easy to identify because they are spiral. I haven't bothered to identify the Japanese ribbed steerers but my recollection (without going to check) is that there are 2 kinds. They are vertical instead of spiral. I also have some steerers without any reinforcing ribs. All of these steerers came from Miele. It appears to me that what brand of steerer they used was related to frame size...

Miele models were built with Columbus, Ishiwata and Tange tubesets. Columbus' butted and spline reinforced steering column employed five helical ridges. Ishiwata's version used five straight ridges, while Tange's version used six, helical ridges. All three, should have external logos, which the OP did not see. It could be a non-spline version or the logo impression could be faint or inadvertently missing. Of the three, a Columbus steerer tube is the most likely to suffer a quality lapse with the logo stamp. Regardless, if it splined, the number and style of the ridges, will identify the manufacturer.

1simplexnut 07-01-22 09:33 PM

That frame has a couple of very similar features to a french Courtois that i recently built up .
Specifically the brake bridge and cable routing etc on BB .

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1597814f2a.jpg
Courtois BB cable routing
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...45a379f38c.jpg
brake bridge silva

1simplexnut 07-01-22 09:42 PM

found a better shot of BB shell
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e00db146d1.jpg
Courtois

JmanBuilder 07-04-22 03:09 PM


Originally Posted by T-Mar (Post 22560487)
Miele models were built with Columbus, Ishiwata and Tange tubesets. Columbus' butted and spline reinforced steering column employed five helical ridges. Ishiwata's version used five straight ridges, while Tange's version used six, helical ridges. All three, should have external logos, which the OP did not see. It could be a non-spline version or the logo impression could be faint or inadvertently missing. Of the three, a Columbus steerer tube is the most likely to suffer a quality lapse with the logo stamp. Regardless, if it splined, the number and style of the ridges, will identify the manufacturer.

I thoroughly cleaned the inside of the steerer tube and it's smooth as butter with no ridges of any kind. I also closely inspected the outside surface and there is no stamp/marking of any kind.

JmanBuilder 07-04-22 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by 1simplexnut (Post 22561180)
found a better shot of BB shell
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e00db146d1.jpg
Courtois

Same or very similar brake bridge and BB shell that are on my frame.

JmanBuilder 07-04-22 03:54 PM


Originally Posted by T-Mar (Post 22560487)
Miele models were built with Columbus, Ishiwata and Tange tubesets. Columbus' butted and spline reinforced steering column employed five helical ridges. Ishiwata's version used five straight ridges, while Tange's version used six, helical ridges. All three, should have external logos, which the OP did not see. It could be a non-spline version or the logo impression could be faint or inadvertently missing. Of the three, a Columbus steerer tube is the most likely to suffer a quality lapse with the logo stamp. Regardless, if it splined, the number and style of the ridges, will identify the manufacturer.

Here are some pics of the inside of the steerer tube.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e6dd923b32.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2a69b421f3.jpg

unworthy1 07-04-22 11:58 PM

no "rifling" so this is not a Columbus (or Tange or Ishiwata) STEERER, but still a good fork. Probably.

JmanBuilder 07-05-22 03:59 AM


Originally Posted by unworthy1 (Post 22564020)
no "rifling" so this is not a Columbus (or Tange or Ishiwata) STEERER, but still a good fork. Probably.

From older forum threads i've gone through, apparently the absence of steerer tube rifling does not necessarily mean it is NOT Columbus (lower en tubes perhaps?). I've also heard of Cromor steerers without rifling. The blades have the correct dimensions for Columbus oval at 28mm x19mm but apparently blades from other manufacturers had these same dimensions as well.

JohnDThompson 07-05-22 07:10 AM

3 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22560332)
I still have a bunch of 1" threaded steerers that came from Miele. They include several brands including several with internal ribbing. Columbus steerers are easy to identify because they are spiral. I haven't bothered to identify the Japanese ribbed steerers but my recollection (without going to check) is that there are 2 kinds.

Columbus steer tubes have five helical ribs winding counterclockwise, viewed from the bottom. Tange Champion steer tubes have six helical ribs, winding clockwise, viewed from the bottom. Ishiwata steer tubes have straight ribs. IIRC, Vitus steer tubes also had helical ribs.

Doug Fattic 07-05-22 09:29 AM

Thanks John for providing me inside steerer reinforcement information so I can now identify the manufacturer of some the steerers I got from Miele. In that supply are steerers that are plain on the inside (no reinforcements either helical or straight) and have no identifying marks (like the Columbus dove) on the outside either so I know who made them.

In this picture is a fork made by Miele. I brought it home straight from the factory. It is using the same fork crown and plain steerer as the OP's but does have Columbus forged dropouts. I gathered from my bins other frame materials I brought back from Miele that was also used on the frame in the original pictures.

One of the most diagnostic identifying frame maker characteristics is the treatment used to join the dropouts to the blades and stays. The treatment in the OP's is exactly the same as all the Miele's I have observed. It is quite possible that his frame was made by Miele but sold under another brand name. Or maybe it is just a Miele.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ba1dab6aa.jpeg
A Miele made fork and other frame materials that came from their factory.

seypat 07-05-22 07:00 PM

Here's a Tange Prestige fork.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d669ddfda6.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...99393b0e3c.jpg

JmanBuilder 07-06-22 05:48 AM


Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22564310)
Thanks John for providing me inside steerer reinforcement information so I can now identify the manufacturer of some the steerers I got from Miele. In that supply are steerers that are plain on the inside (no reinforcements either helical or straight) and have no identifying marks (like the Columbus dove) on the outside either so I know who made them.

In this picture is a fork made by Miele. I brought it home straight from the factory. It is using the same fork crown and plain steerer as the OP's but does have Columbus forged dropouts. I gathered from my bins other frame materials I brought back from Miele that was also used on the frame in the original pictures.

One of the most diagnostic identifying frame maker characteristics is the treatment used to join the dropouts to the blades and stays. The treatment in the OP's is exactly the same as all the Miele's I have observed. It is quite possible that his frame was made by Miele but sold under another brand name. Or maybe it is just a Miele.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ba1dab6aa.jpeg
A Miele made fork and other frame materials that came from their factory.

Here are some fork bits in more detail. Could very well be the same fork. If any additional details might help identify the frame model/tubing let me know. Otherwise i'm happy to call it a Miele. Looks similar to several Lupa (Cromor tubing) and Elite models I've seen online but I'm not familiar with their intricaties and variations. Grateful for all your input!
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4a373913a5.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19f9853b45.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5fba690318.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8b1e9424af.jpg

Doug Fattic 07-06-22 07:59 AM

Now that you show a picture with the Columbus front dropout and the treatment between it and the fork blade, there can be no doubt your fork was made by Miele. Another strong indicator is the position and size of the breathing hole to let hot air out when it is brazed. The one on your fork and my fork are exactly the same. Miele did chrome plating too.

However I don't know if Miele subcontracted frames to other sellers that used a different brand name. I'm not familiar with the different Miele models either. Just like all the different brands of steerers I got from their factory when it closed, so did they have all kinds of different brands of tubing too. I didn't get at their auction much tubing but what I did get was Tange #1.

I measured my fork and from the center of the brake hole to the center of a front axle = 360mm. If you subtract a 700C rim diameter of 311, that leaves 49mm for brake clearance. That means the brakes shoes have to be set at the bottom of a 39/49 or 50 short reach brake. That leave the most space for a tire. In other words a 28m tire will fit (that wouldn't fit if the fork was designed to the brake shoes to be in the middle of the slot.

The fork rake was 43mm.

JmanBuilder 07-06-22 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22565211)
Now that you show a picture with the Columbus front dropout and the treatment between it and the fork blade, there can be no doubt your fork was made by Miele. Another strong indicator is the position and size of the breathing hole to let hot air out when it is brazed. The one on your fork and my fork are exactly the same. Miele did chrome plating too.

However I don't know if Miele subcontracted frames to other sellers that used a different brand name. I'm not familiar with the different Miele models either. Just like all the different brands of steerers I got from their factory when it closed, so did they have all kinds of different brands of tubing too. I didn't get at their auction much tubing but what I did get was Tange #1.

I measured my fork and from the center of the brake hole to the center of a front axle = 360mm. If you subtract a 700C rim diameter of 311, that leaves 49mm for brake clearance. That means the brakes shoes have to be set at the bottom of a 39/49 or 50 short reach brake. That leave the most space for a tire. In other words a 28m tire will fit (that wouldn't fit if the fork was designed to the brake shoes to be in the middle of the slot.

The fork rake was 43mm.

I get the same measurement, ~360mm from brake hole to center of hub. I measured a rake of 41.5mm but my technique is quite rudimentary. The brake reach has indeed made finding suitable brakes a bit more complicated. I tried a 50mm reach Modolo caliper I have and it's just a bit short. Some older standard reach calipers have a 52mm reach and should work. Considering a set of Grand Cru long reach as well.

Doug Fattic 07-06-22 04:27 PM


Originally Posted by JmanBuilder (Post 22565920)
I get the same measurement, ~360mm from brake hole to center of hub. I measured a rake of 41.5mm but my technique is quite rudimentary. The brake reach has indeed made finding suitable brakes a bit more complicated. I tried a 50mm reach Modolo caliper I have and it's just a bit short. Some older standard reach calipers have a 52mm reach and should work. Considering a set of Grand Cru long reach as well.

There are several things you can do to help make a 40/50 Campy brake to work wth your fork. Many brakes come with a kind of spacer that holds out the brake a little further from the fork crown. I'm not talking about the star washer although a couple of them might work too. It is thicker. This is usually to get the brake away from hitting the lower headset. If the brake goes out a bit, the blocks have to be set a bit higher in the slot because the rim is rising up. It works in reverse in the rear. You can also safely file use a title on the brakes slots to length them a little. The best way to do this is to remove the brake blocks of course and then use a round file the same diameter as the slot and place it across both slots to help keep it oriented. Of course there are many 47/57 brakes both vintage and modern dual pivots (that brake even better) that will work.

JmanBuilder 07-06-22 05:21 PM


Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22565943)
There are several things you can do to help make a 40/50 Campy brake to work wth your fork. Many brakes come with a kind of spacer that holds out the brake a little further from the fork crown. I'm not talking about the star washer although a couple of them might work too. It is thicker. This is usually to get the brake away from hitting the lower headset. If the brake goes out a bit, the blocks have to be set a bit higher in the slot because the rim is rising up. It works in reverse in the rear. You can also safely file use a title on the brakes slots to length them a little. The best way to do this is to remove the brake blocks of course and then use a round file the same diameter as the slot and place it across both slots to help keep it oriented. Of course there are many 47/57 brakes both vintage and modern dual pivots (that brake even better) that will work.

I have several near mint Shimano 600 Tricolor components that I was hoping to use but i'm missing the brakeset. The matching BR-6400 calipers have a 49mm reach. I guess filing the brake slot could be an option. I'm not a purist either so I don't mind mixing it up, just like the look of the tricolor brakes.

JmanBuilder 08-08-22 08:24 PM


Originally Posted by Doug Fattic (Post 22565211)
Now that you show a picture with the Columbus front dropout and the treatment between it and the fork blade, there can be no doubt your fork was made by Miele. Another strong indicator is the position and size of the breathing hole to let hot air out when it is brazed. The one on your fork and my fork are exactly the same. Miele did chrome plating too.

However I don't know if Miele subcontracted frames to other sellers that used a different brand name. I'm not familiar with the different Miele models either. Just like all the different brands of steerers I got from their factory when it closed, so did they have all kinds of different brands of tubing too. I didn't get at their auction much tubing but what I did get was Tange #1.

I measured my fork and from the center of the brake hole to the center of a front axle = 360mm. If you subtract a 700C rim diameter of 311, that leaves 49mm for brake clearance. That means the brakes shoes have to be set at the bottom of a 39/49 or 50 short reach brake. That leave the most space for a tire. In other words a 28m tire will fit (that wouldn't fit if the fork was designed to the brake shoes to be in the middle of the slot.

The fork rake was 43mm.

Just to follow up, my seller contacted the original owner to try and get some clarification on the frameset. Apparently it was an artisanal build by a Robert "Bob" Desmarais in Québec. Desmarais collaborated on some builds with Limongi so I guess that's where the confusion came from. So it is neither a Limongi nor a Miele. This is a photo of the original.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5ecb37da0.jpeg


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