SpeedofLite 

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smd4

"[D]espite being equipped with the latest in ultra hard (115 psi), ultra skinny clinchers..."

*snicker.*

Anyway I do always enjoy the "Counterpoint" that accompanies BG reviews.

icemilkcoffee 

Is that frame really TIG welded though? The welding beads must be tiny to be hidden by those rings.

smd4

The article says "heliarc" welding.

EDIT: I googled it and see they're the same.

T-Mar

The weld beads are not under the "stress rings". The internal lugs are not stepped to accept a square cut tube. The tube ends are mitered and fit tightly around the adjoining lug section, Consequently, the weld beads appear in the same location as a TIG welded frame. Here's a (poorly) repainted International LD showing the weld beads.


Edit: Perhaps this catalogue diagram will provide further enlightenment on the frame construction method.

embankmentlb

They didn’t market these things to casual riders.

T-Mar

The 1986 advertising campaign actually categorized it as a "stage racing/triathlon" model. It was a bit too upscale for casual riding and didn't have amenities like eyelet dropouts. Conversely, it was also a bit too heavy and the geometry a bit too relaxed for the serious racer. I always thought it was well suited to the avid cyclist who preferred long day rides or centuries.

smd4

Definitely too heavy, but 73/74 is hardly "relaxed" geometry.

icemilkcoffee 

I see! Seems like they could have just TIG welded the whole frame and forget about the lugs.

T-Mar

My comment was about the geometry in general and not specifically the angles.

T-Mar

That may have been considered too risky. Previously, welding had been used primarily on very low end bicycles and had a poor reputation. It was just starting to take over from fillet brazing on ATBs but that crowd was more receptive to non-orthodox ideas. The road fraternity was conservative by comparison and had been brought up on the maxim that strong frames required lugs. Besides, weld beads were ugly, while lugs could be works of art.

It was a similar situation.with oversize tubing. The early 1980s had been all about aerodynmics. Now they were being asked to accpet oversized tubes that were less aerodynamic. On top of that, they looked heavy and destroyed the proportions of the bicycles.

Things had started to change recently. Some of the French companies had started to utilize lugless, internal brazing but only on lower end models and with standard (metric) diameters. Cannondale and Klein were using oversize tubes and welded construction but their frame were made of aluminum. Masi was using oversized steel tubes but with custom lugs. None of these made such a big sales splash as to cause a paradigm shift within the industry. More significantly, nobody was combining steel, oversized tubes and welding on a road bicycle.

The approach used on the International LD appears to have been a tempered one, aimed at easing the roadie into new thinking. Sure, it was welded but it was backed up with internal, brazed lugs. Yes, the tubes were oversize but only moderately so. Asking the general public to accept (solely) welded construction and oversize tubes on a steel, road frame all at once, could easily have been a marketing disaster. That bridge was crossed in 1990 by Diamond Back, after ATBs had proven the concept. Even then, sales were only moderate. The Expert TG never had the sales of its Centurion Ironman Expert predecessor.

Time has proven that International LD concept was never widely accepted. It lasted onl 2-3 years and only had moderate sales success. It may have been even less sucessful without the internal lugs. We'll never know. While the construction has proven reliable, these frame do appear to have an Achilles heel, as multiple members have reported fractures in the investment cast seat lugs.

dddd

I've got one of these frames in my size, beautifully re-painted in metallic green.

The 73/74-degree frame angles are the same as all of Schwinn's higher-spec road bikes (Circuit, Paramount, et all) from the late 1980's, very popular numbers those are (by 1989, even the Traveler had those same angles).

I'm puzzled by the joint-building process though. I don't think that it would be cool to weld the steel after the brazing process, but how else could they do it?
Before today, before seeing that the tube itself met the top tube with a weld joint, I had thought that the lug OD was stepped, that the lug itself was welded but that the tube stopped at the ring that was part of the lug. But that is not what the picture shows!

T-Mar

While the Schwinns of the same era may have identical angles, I think you'll find that they have slightly shorter wheelbase, chainstays and/or less rake than the International LD. This slightly more aggressive/more responsive/less relaxed geometry is what distinguished most true racing models from the mid-range models aimed at triathletes and club racers.


I've seen some early International LD where the welds appears to have been filed smooth(er). A cursory look would have one believing that it was a straight cut tube plugged onto a stepped lug. I wouldn't be surprised if some owners even thought they were an adhesively bonded frame. I'm wondering if the finishing of the weld bead was subsequently dropped as a cost savings? Regardless, the catalogue illustration and photo reveals the true construction. Please post a photo of the lugs on your International LD.

dddd

Jimbo1983

Yeah I still have mine in the pink/grey colours and some of the welds are pretty bad. I can take photos tomorrow. Cool bike though.
I sort of assumed the way they did it was make the lugs by welding oversized bits together, and then doing the brazing afterwards. Thanks for posting that article it was pretty interesting.

icemilkcoffee 

It just so happens I have 2 TIG welded Nishikis: The Nishiki Aero II which came a couple years earlier than the OS tubing International:


The weld quality was rather sloppy.

The Linear lo-pro came out a year after the International:


The weld quality is reasonably good on this frame.

Jimbo1983

Here are a couple of pictures of the worst bits.

icemilkcoffee 

that doesn’t really look like TIG welding beads. It almost looks like somebody smearing some bondo over the welds.

Duo

thank you Speed of Lite, and a blast from the past. the International was my first serious bicycle coming from the mass whatevers we had as a kid.

currently i ride a Fuji Touring, quite heavy in steel but a bike many have toured on over many continents. anyone know if the current steel bikes produced like the Fugi are actually heavier chromoly steel over the normal? touring bikes aint about racing so i don't care about speed much, it just seems that these bicycles should be a serious choice for those that want durability over bling. also this Fuji allows me to put a much fatter tire on than my Trek racing bicycle and it seems to have even larger Granny Gears. thanks.