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Specialized Allez 3Rensho?

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Specialized Allez 3Rensho?

Old 07-17-22, 09:02 AM
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75lechamp 
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Specialized Allez 3Rensho?

Hi folks, while out on the annual Tour de Steamboat ride yesterday, I stumbled onto a frame that I have had in the back of my mind for a long time, an early Specialized Allez (the bike used in the American Flyers film). I am not well versed in the history of Specialized, but have done some research, and I believe this to be an 83 or 84 Allez, based on the following:

Offset fork crown
Long thin lugs
<EO> Medalist and frame size 52 on BB, no serial number
Chromed Campy fork tips and dropouts

Based on all that, I am thinking this is one of the 3Rensho built frames from about 1983-4. My question is - does this appear to be one of those frames? Interestingly, indoors the paint seems non-metallic, but in the sun you can definitely see some faint metal flake. Very nice paint!

Also the frame has had the tubing decals removed - what would these have looked like originally?

Since that film American Flyers came out, I have been interested in building up a replica bike, but am unsure of the components. I did find a catalog and it seems to indicate that this model came pretty much full Campy SR, with the exception of the headset, which was the alloy special sealed Specialized. As luck would have it, I actually have this headset - this particular frame has a Shimano 600, which I don't think was stock, though it might have been.

If you look carefully at the film, you might see that earlier scenes show Kevin Costner on a bike that seems to be full Campy SR, with the exception of an SR laprade seatpost with red accents. Later race scenes looks more like the SE version of this bike, with a Specialized crank, and mostly Suntour Superbe components, also with the same SR laprade seatpost.

I am not quite sure which direction to go, let me know your thoughts.

Shimano 600 headset

Offset fork crown

long thin lugs


Campy chromed dropouts

EO Medalist 52, no serial number

Campy chromed fork tips
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Old 07-17-22, 09:16 AM
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My guess is that you are correct, it’s a Konno Allez.

A very nice bike. Could be built up with Suntour or Shimano, or even Campagnolo if you like that sort of thing.

The decal indicating the tubing was probably something like this:


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Old 07-17-22, 01:10 PM
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75lechamp

Jackpot, real deal, period.

Great score, love these.
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Old 07-17-22, 01:56 PM
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Thanks merziac I was hoping you would chime in! FYI I took the fork off, and there's no question about the tubing material now - Ishiwata!



Interesting how somebody needed to slice the crown race to fit...?
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Old 07-17-22, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 75lechamp View Post
Thanks merziac I was hoping you would chime in! FYI I took the fork off, and there's no question about the tubing material now - Ishiwata!



Interesting how somebody needed to slice the crown race to fit...?
It cracked and split on its own, not really that uncommon, likely a bit to tight on the race. There was A Paramount tandem the other day with one too.

Also, the tubing decal with 3Rensho on it seems to be a bit rare, most that I have seen are the plain Big S "SPECIAL SERIES RACING" version.

AndyK's has one and another is on the web.

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Old 07-17-22, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 75lechamp View Post
Thanks merziac I was hoping you would chime in! FYI I took the fork off, and there's no question about the tubing material now - Ishiwata!



Interesting how somebody needed to slice the crown race to fit...?
And I might be mildly concerned about those hack? marks, dark lines right above the race, maybe from pounding the too tight race on with the wrong tool?

If those are very deep at all, I would ask @bulgie , @Doug Fattic or @JohnDThompson for their thoughts.

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Old 07-17-22, 08:18 PM
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Yes, as others have said it's the real deal.....i would have that fork checked out before I would ride it and have it repaired if needed. The cuts/scrapes are worrisome because of the depth and direction they are in.
BTW a really great score and one very worthy of debugging correctly "before" riding.
Best, Ben
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Old 07-18-22, 12:49 AM
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Yeah, mine has the "3Rensho" tubing decal, but mine also has Shimano GS dropouts, so I believe it's from a different production run. As @merziac said, the 3Rensho tubing decal is uncommon, even on 3Rensho-built Allez.



The other decal looks just like this without the 3Rensho oval, and that's readily available. VeloCals has a version that says "Tange" in an oval, so I'm sure they could make you one that says "3Rensho" if you want that.
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Old 07-18-22, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Yeah, mine has the "3Rensho" tubing decal, but mine also has Shimano GS dropouts, so I believe it's from a different production run. As @merziac said, the 3Rensho tubing decal is uncommon, even on 3Rensho-built Allez.



The other decal looks just like this without the 3Rensho oval, and that's readily available. VeloCals has a version that says "Tange" in an oval, so I'm sure they could make you one that says "3Rensho" if you want that.
This is the one I want, mine has none and the paint is pretty bad so it is on a very short list of frames that may get painted.


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Old 07-18-22, 01:05 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
This is the one I want, mine has none and the paint is pretty bad so it is on a very short list of frames that may get painted.
If you want to try touching it up, Rust Oleum Cherry Red is a perfect match. The seat stay cap in my previous picture was painted with Rust Oleum and the rest of the paint there is original.

Edit: check that -- the seat stay cap and the lug.

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Old 07-18-22, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
If you want to try touching it up, Rust Oleum Cherry Red is a perfect match. The seat stay cap in my previous picture was painted with Rust Oleum and the rest of the paint there is original.

Edit: check that -- the seat stay cap and the lug.

You are a far braver man than I, mine has scratches from end to end, and will need paint to hold its proper place in the lineup.

There won't be room for any besauge? Allez's, eventually.

Stumpy's maybe.
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Old 07-18-22, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 75lechamp View Post
Thanks merziac I was hoping you would chime in! FYI I took the fork off, and there's no question about the tubing material now - Ishiwata!
Both Ishiwata and Tange would braze forks to customer spec, using whatever tubing the customer wanted. The steer tube would then be stamped to show who brazed the fork, not necessarily who made the tubing. Look inside the steer tube for reinforcing ribs. High-end Ishiwata tubes have straight ribs.

Interesting how somebody needed to slice the crown race to fit...?
That looks like a Campagnolo Super Record crown race. Those had a propensity to split on installation if you weren't careful.
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Old 07-18-22, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
You are a far braver man than I, mine has scratches from end to end, and will need paint to hold its proper place in the lineup.

There won't be room for any besauge? Allez's, eventually.

Stumpy's maybe.
I was actually planning to send mine out to be painted. The Rust Oleum was just supposed to be a temporary measure so I could ride it to see how it fit before investing more money. Then it turned out looking so good I've just left it.
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Old 07-18-22, 09:54 AM
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Cool find. I'm a bit surprised that there wasn't an issue with steering for the previous owner with that cracked race.
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Old 07-18-22, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I was actually planning to send mine out to be painted. The Rust Oleum was just supposed to be a temporary measure so I could ride it to see how it fit before investing more money. Then it turned out looking so good I've just left it.
Yeah, I will plan on a massive touch up, maybe save myself from the full repaint/PC folly, this isn't really one of the ones I want to do but may.
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Old 07-18-22, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
Both Ishiwata and Tange would braze forks to customer spec, using whatever tubing the customer wanted. The steer tube would then be stamped to show who brazed the fork, not necessarily who made the tubing. Look inside the steer tube for reinforcing ribs. High-end Ishiwata tubes have straight ribs.



That looks like a Campagnolo Super Record crown race. Those had a propensity to split on installation if you weren't careful.
Any thoughts on the hack? marks right above the crown race?
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Old 07-18-22, 01:48 PM
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Yeah,I revisited this thread again in order to see what others thought about the fork...the marks/"cuts" are suspect to my eyes and without better pictures, I can't tell how deep they are. My other concern is that there are more than one and they go around the tube, any the side not pictured.....chisel or hack-saw?
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Old 07-18-22, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by xiaoman1 View Post
Yeah,I revisited this thread again in order to see what others thought about the fork...the marks/"cuts" are suspect to my eyes and without better pictures, I can't tell how deep they are. My other concern is that there are more than one and they go around the tube, any the side not pictured.....chisel or hack-saw?
Best, Ben
My thought was that the race seating area was a bit wider than standard and someone tried hitting the race at an angle (at different angles) trying to get it down rather than having the fork crown race seat faced properly.
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Old 07-18-22, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by xiaoman1 View Post
Yeah,I revisited this thread again in order to see what others thought about the fork...the marks/"cuts" are suspect to my eyes and without better pictures, I can't tell how deep they are. My other concern is that there are more than one and they go around the tube, any the side not pictured.....chisel or hack-saw?
Best, Ben
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
My thought was that the race seating area was a bit wider than standard and someone tried hitting the race at an angle (at different angles) trying to get it down rather than having the fork crown race seat faced properly.
Very likely the result of ham fisted force getting the race to seat when it didn't want to. Maybe a mushroomed lip piece of pipe, the marks look to be about where the race was when they started pounding.

You would hope that whoever did it would have realized it shouldn't need that much force and stopped, yeah, right.
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Old 07-18-22, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
Very likely the result of ham fisted force getting the race to seat when it didn't want to. Maybe a mushroomed lip piece of pipe, the marks look to be about where the race was when they started pounding.

You would hope that whoever did it would have realized it shouldn't need that much force and stopped, yeah, right.
I can't really speak. About a year ago, I was trying to put a new record threaded headset on my 1989-ish Colnago Super Record. The guy I bought it from said it had had one on previously (I bought it as frame/fork), so I didn't think much of it. He also said it was Columbus SLX (it was SP) and had had a 27.2 seatpost (I couldn't get anything bigger than 27.0 to fit), so I shouldn't have believed him.

Anyway, I got resistance, hit harder and the crown race broke. Several little pieces shattered off. At the time, a new headset was only $10 more than a new fork crown race, so I figured, "always good to have extra bearings" and bought another record threaded headset. Took it to the LBS to see if there was something I was forgetting to do and they promptly shattered the second fork crown race trying to install it (handed it back to me broken, shrugged and said that there was probably something wrong with whoever made my crown race. Said I should get another one but sand the inside down before trying to install it and told me that trying to face the fork seat to fit this clearly standard-sized crown race was a bad idea that I shouldn't do. Took me all day of calling around before I could find a shop that had a mechanic who would mill the fork seat down to the correct size so that the crown race would fit.

So yeah, coming from someone who is a bit ham-fisted who's not stopped when the crown race hit resistance (and then had a shop do the same), I'm going to put my hands in my pockets and walk away whistling.
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Old 07-18-22, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I can't really speak. About a year ago, I was trying to put a new record threaded headset on my 1989-ish Colnago Super Record. The guy I bought it from said it had had one on previously (I bought it as frame/fork), so I didn't think much of it. He also said it was Columbus SLX (it was SP) and had had a 27.2 seatpost (I couldn't get anything bigger than 27.0 to fit), so I shouldn't have believed him.

Anyway, I got resistance, hit harder and the crown race broke. Several little pieces shattered off. At the time, a new headset was only $10 more than a new fork crown race, so I figured, "always good to have extra bearings" and bought another record threaded headset. Took it to the LBS to see if there was something I was forgetting to do and they promptly shattered the second fork crown race trying to install it (handed it back to me broken, shrugged and said that there was probably something wrong with whoever made my crown race. Said I should get another one but sand the inside down before trying to install it and told me that trying to face the fork seat to fit this clearly standard-sized crown race was a bad idea that I shouldn't do. Took me all day of calling around before I could find a shop that had a mechanic who would mill the fork seat down to the correct size so that the crown race would fit.

So yeah, coming from someone who is a bit ham-fisted who's not stopped when the crown race hit resistance (and then had a shop do the same), I'm going to put my hands in my pockets and walk away whistling.
No worries my friend, I seem to remember something about that, its not easy when info and experience are thin.

My Strawberry was really tight when I went to put the old Campy crown race I was using on, I always sand the sharp corner of the race and the race seat and use thick grease, all for good measure.

I have a race installer and hit it harder than I wanted, stopped and called Dave Levy, told him I thought it was too tight, old Campy that like to crack, sanded and greased, hit it harder he said, it went on but hasn't been ridden a lot so...

At a certain point it also becomes about the fork too, I don't like to pound that hard against the whole thing, there were some pretty deep indents in the 2x4 I was pounding against.

Plenty of this takes some brute force, trick is to stop if its not working and figure out a workaround/hack/etc. I never employ a hammer unless its a truly normal part of the process as it is with this but also implies that it can go very wrong as it did with this.

I always stop and take stock when I start to reach for an abnormal tool for a certain task, danger Will Robinson, take a step back, gather my Chi and proceed with caution.

Its very hard to not get caught up in the moment, been there many times.

Its really fun at the drag strip trying to keep your cool and make it to the next round without screwing something up that takes you out without even making it to the starting line.
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Old 07-18-22, 05:12 PM
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Let me know if you need a nice Specialized saddle in very good condition and I will put this on the For Sale forum...
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Old 07-19-22, 09:27 AM
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I encountered a lot of resistance when installing the Specialized crown race. As others have noted above, I would bet the marks on the tube were likely the result of forcing the Shimano race on - they probably got to the point where they either cracked or intentionally sawed the split to get it to fit. I sure wish I had a crown race cutter tool, but do not, so I went to visit my pal at the LBS and he re-faced the crown, so now fits without any mishap. Not much material came off, but enough. Also, we took off some of the paint around where the marks were, and turns out they looked worse than they were - pretty superficial and we both agreed the fork is sound.

I really like the design of the Specialized headset which is sealed with rubber o-rings, pretty innovative for the time.

I looked down the steerer tube but it's smooth, no ribs. So, not sure if the full set is Ishiwata or not.


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Old 07-19-22, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by 75lechamp View Post
I encountered a lot of resistance when installing the Specialized crown race. As others have noted above, I would bet the marks on the tube were likely the result of forcing the Shimano race on - they probably got to the point where they either cracked or intentionally sawed the split to get it to fit. I sure wish I had a crown race cutter tool, but do not, so I went to visit my pal at the LBS and he re-faced the crown, so now fits without any mishap. Not much material came off, but enough. Also, we took off some of the paint around where the marks were, and turns out they looked worse than they were - pretty superficial and we both agreed the fork is sound.

I really like the design of the Specialized headset which is sealed with rubber o-rings, pretty innovative for the time.

I looked down the steerer tube but it's smooth, no ribs. So, not sure if the full set is Ishiwata or not.


Great news, most excellent!
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Old 07-25-22, 04:20 PM
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75lechamp 
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Bikes: 1975 Motobecane LeChampion (silver lilac), 1974 Motobecane Grand Jubile (red/black); 1975 Motobecane Team Champion (orange); 1982 Pinarello Professional (Exorcist Green); 1974 Raleigh Professional MkIV mink blue, 1974 Motobecane Grand Record blk/red

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Starting the build....

I've decided to stick closely to what I found on the original '83 and '84 catalogs for this bike, with a few variations. I think this might be a '84 based on the Campy dropouts, but I elected to go with Mavic GP4s from the '83 catalog, as I think finding a set of Saturne (or Saturae) tubulars might be tough, plus I had the GP4s already in the parts bin. I have always really like the early Suntour Superbe shift levers, so used those as well. I wanted to put as much Specialized stuff on as I could find. I got a set of Specialized handlebars, a black stem, and a cool set of track pedals with Specialized clips, along with laminated straps (rebranded from Binda Extra, maybe?)

A Specialized question, maybe merziac or someone more familiar with Specialized than me could assist with? -- The bars are marked "V" - to me they look similar in bend to Cinelli 66s. What are the differences between the various models (I, II, III, IV, V)?

More to come....




Specialized V bars


Specialized black stem

Suntour Superbe levers



Specialized pedals, including branded straps, clips
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