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Top Fillet Brazing Vintage (New one)

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Top Fillet Brazing Vintage (New one)

Old 07-31-22, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
I would put dave kirk's fillet brazing up there as good s or better than anybody else's



Not a fan of CrMo stems but I may have to make an exception. Wow.
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Old 07-31-22, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
I would put dave kirk's fillet brazing up there as good s or better than anybody else's


That makes my favorite quill stem (the Nitto Ui-12) weep every time it looks in the mirror now that it knows what it could have been.
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Old 07-31-22, 08:25 PM
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So what does “Top” mean in the thread title? I know the OP isn’t a native English speaker. I’m thinking he means “best?”
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Old 08-01-22, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
I would put dave kirk's fillet brazing up there as good s or better than anybody else's
Yeah he's in the Pantheon, one of the great ones.

I'm not going to list the greatest fillet brazers, because (1) I would forget someone and cause offense and (2) who knows, maybe the absolute GOAT is someone none of us have ever even heard of!

But Kirk is a consensus hall-of-famer.

I first saw this sort of "crested" fillet (shown in some of the Dave Kirk pics) being done by Glenn Erickson in about 1980. I doubt he was the first person to do it, just the first time I noticed it. He actually did it on lugs, liked to fillet over lugs for a swoopier transition radius. No pics unfortunately.

Later Mark DiNucci did much the same, I think he won an award at NAHBS with this:


But Erickson is a hall-of-fame fillet brazer too, for sure.

If you want to see fillet brazing (and fillet smoothing) being done by a master, watch Paul Brodie's videos. Like this one:

He's not making wall art, just MTBs to be ridden hard, not meant to be perfect, but he gets damn close to perfection anyway.

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Old 08-01-22, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
Je voulais dire fleur ....
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Old 08-01-22, 04:51 AM
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Old 08-01-22, 05:00 AM
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Old 08-01-22, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
These are quite nice pieces of industrial art. Fillet brazing was a popular technique when lugs didn't work (i.e odd angle frames, oversize diameter tubes, non-round tubes, etc.). That is one of the reasons why it persisted for so long on tandems. It freed the framebuilder/designer to explore new avenues prior to the development of internal brazing and the advent of TIG welding.

Its appeal these days is primarily aesthetic, a point not lost on a membership who prefers fancy crowns and sulpted lugs over Unicrown forks and and TIG weld beads. As already pointed out, these are massive fillets and are reminiscent of aero frames of the early 1980s. Consequently, they are much heavier than necessary and compromise the joint. There are certainly cheaper, lighter and stronger ways to join two tubes.

Even as art, I have some quibbles with these frames. The huge, aero joints don't work aesthetically when the bicycle is equipped with non-aero components. To my eyes, the sharp, pointed transitions from the stay ends to the rear dropouts, stand out in a jarring contrast of styles with the smooth, flowing transitions of the other joints. All the little touches, such as the exiting of the rear brake cable, rear derailleur housing and blind brake mountings are a little too complex and non-practical for my tastes, in what I consider should be an elegant but simple machine.

Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
I am pretty sure the really aero ones dave kirk did were for a show bike, that won awards. I know from following dave's work that a large percentage of the bikes he does are filet brazed, but not with the extreme aero flair.

you point about design is well taken. I had the change to talk frame with Dave a year ago at CIno. it seems that with lugs, especially bottom bracket, there are a lot of non desirable design issues when you go bigger than 32mm tires, and filet brazed give more options so with the trend to bigger tires drives that mix a bit
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Old 08-01-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar
Even as art, I have some quibbles with these frames. The huge, aero joints don't work aesthetically when the bicycle is equipped with non-aero components. To my eyes, the sharp, pointed transitions from the stay ends to the rear dropouts, stand out in a jarring contrast of styles with the smooth, flowing transitions of the other joints. All the little touches, such as the exiting of the rear brake cable, rear derailleur housing and blind brake mountings are a little too complex and non-practical for my tastes, in what I consider should be an elegant but simple machine.

Of course, as art, it's subjective, personal opinion and as industrial art there's a melding of aesthetic and function for which each individual is going to have a particular blend that they consider ideal. Obviously, this mix is perfect for the OP and it's wonderful that he shows such enthusiasm for the brand. I can certainly appreciate his viewpoint and consider them quite nice, even though I find them somewhat disjointed and and the blend does not result in my ideal cup of tea.
Well said, Tx!
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Old 08-01-22, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by billytwosheds
In slightly modified words of The Dude, "You're not wrong, Walter. You're just an [jerk]."

Bulgie's post was by far the most useful thing that's come out of this thread and the last one.

It seems the OP learned little or nothing from the last.
Exactly, we are being poked in the eye, the OP's reluctance to divulge is very tiring and trying at best and very much not in the spirit here.

Aside from that these bikes while beautiful in their own right are far from perfect in the filet realm he seems to think they are.

He stopped way too soon at 23 frames IMO.
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Old 08-01-22, 02:00 PM
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I think the thread is being redeemed a bit by some opening of other excellent builders to the thread... Erickson, Kirk, @bulgie (slipped you in there sir), Rex, etc...

I like some Russ Denny frames I have seen, and then there is this one I cannot identify the builder, but has intrigued me.

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Old 08-01-22, 02:07 PM
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Are these unpainted frames that people are posting stainless? Clear coated? Or is it just that they're carefully kept away from moisture for shows/pictures? However they're done, they're cool (especially the matching ferrules above).
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Old 08-01-22, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau
Are these unpainted frames that people are posting stainless? Clear coated? Or is it just that they're carefully kept away from moisture for shows/pictures? However they're done, they're cool (especially the matching ferrules above).
The Krik is stainless and quite amazing as his work is. I can't confirm for the others but they look like they are post finishing and pre paint. It takes a bare steel a bit for surface rust to form.
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Old 08-01-22, 02:57 PM
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Old 08-01-22, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
Also, can you explain to me what perfection is for you ?
Ummm I think post #50 pretty much shows perfection!
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Old 08-01-22, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
I am sincerely and truly sorry that what I am posting is tiring and trying for your person.
I am not saying that what I publish is perfection, but it comes very close...at my eyes as well as some great European framers whose names I won't mention, but if you follow the posts I publish, you will find some of them...
Also, can you explain to me what perfection is for you ?
Can you post some pictures about it?
I imagine that in your collection there is plenty of material for that.
In fine you say "very much not in the spirit here", so what is the spirit I should have?
Full disclosure, please explain the rear brake cable/seatpost interaction and function in complete technical detail including any problems, unreliability, user challenges, etc.

You have been asked many times, we are all about a good secret here but you have offered no explanation so far, not in the spirit.

"Perfection" would be no uneven or waviness in the surface or presentation of the transitions of the filets and while these are beautiful in their own right without a doubt, they are for the most part not perfect as a statement of fact which can be seen to my eye in most of your pictures.

They are obviously "perfect" for you in your perception and appreciation as many of mine are for me.

I'm glad you found us and are sharing these but a request for more information here is really just a formality, we almost always provide it without being prompted as it is a very large part of the spirit here and what we are about.

Many come here for help, support, encouragement, enthusiasm and information. When we ask for any of this in return we expect a response in kind.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:52 AM
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Old 08-02-22, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
The frame has a higher market value than the Campagnolo 50th group and I've also recovered the original case and documents for the Campagnolo lifetime warranty
Very cool find.

Looks like the Campy 50th group sells between US$4,500 and $7,000. Probably not many vintage steel frames selling for those numbers.
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Old 08-02-22, 11:25 AM
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Old 08-02-22, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
This means that either big collectors don't understand anything, or they understand more than well...
Yeah, I'm guessing big collectors don't know anything.

What are the significance of the portions you have circled in red?
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Old 08-02-22, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
Anything else? So that I don't forget anything...
I guess we'll have to assume you don't know or can't explain exactly how the rear brake and RD cabling work or how the SP is secured since asking only gets us more pics that don't help.

Again, these bikes are wonderful and I am glad you're so passionate about them but you will not be able to impart that passion to us until we understand these unique attributes that we know from experience can be very problematic.

Maybe Ringo could help if he was here.

I have a Merz that had internal cabling when it was built and somewhere along the way it was abandoned, soldered up, sealed off and left for dead.

I may try to restore it, leave it or clean up the leftover bits so they don't show anymore.
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Old 08-02-22, 11:43 AM
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Those Mercets, the pin striping is <chef's kiss>
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Old 08-02-22, 11:49 AM
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Old 08-02-22, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by merziac
I guess we'll have to assume you don't know or can't explain exactly how the rear brake and RD cabling work or how the SP is secured since asking only gets us more pics that don't help.
It's been suggested that the seat posts use a quill design, like old-school stems...but with the brake cable seeming to go directly through the center line of the seatpost, it would seem as though it would rub on any quill bolt, which also passes through the centerline of the steapost. Curiouser and curiouser....
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Old 08-02-22, 11:55 AM
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