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Top Fillet Brazing Vintage (New one)

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Top Fillet Brazing Vintage (New one)

Old 08-02-22, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
Now that's a response I'm happy to read, namely from a frame builder!
What is the tube thickness you have been working on?
At least three others who have responded are framebuilders as well. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge in this sub-forum.

I have built with tubing down to .7-.4-.7 which is why I tend to stick to silver.
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Old 08-02-22, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Wileyone
It is just wrong to compare a schwinn to the beautiful bikes posted in this thread.
Vintage Schwinn bicycles were filet brazed until they found a cheaper but just as strong method of assembly. The only difference is how much time the frame builder took finishing the frame post brazing and a fancy paint finish.




1946 Schwinn Cruiser

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 08-02-22 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 08-02-22, 06:31 PM
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.....

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Old 08-02-22, 06:59 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Ago15
It is true that in industrial production there are arguments to take into account such as time and cost price.
Do you have any idea how many hours they had to make a frame before painting it?
In the late 60’s Schwinn was selling approximately 1,000,000 bicycles a year so we aren’t talking about hours per frame more like minutes.
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Old 08-02-22, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
You will never know whether there was cleanup post brazing or not most likely there is some. Obviously if the frame builder is doing this as a business the less filing the better. I am still mystified about the romance that surrounds filet brazing. It is clearly the simplest method requiring the least skill, fewest specialized tools, easiest to repair and coverup errors, cheapest materials cost, heaviest and finally the weakest.
"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Admiral Grace Hopper

"...heaviest..."


Henry James bottom lug

3/16 Gasflux C-04 Nickel Bronze Rod


Practicing fillet brazing - less than one stick of bronze filler rods used on each. Pix cause it happened.

"...stronger..." Many have claimed this, but I'd like to see some destructive testing data. Rather than do all the work here, I'll let you find that. I would say that fillet brazed, lugged, and TIG welded frame joints are "strong enough"

"...least skill..." You a framebuilder? Again, UBI teaches both methods, but you need more practice time on fillet brazing before they let you loose on real tubing.k

"...fewest specialized tools..." What specialized tools do you need for a lugged frame? Be advised I've done both.

"...easiest to repair and cover up errors..." You a framebuilder?

"...cheapest materials..." Yep, lug cost + silver brazing costs more.

It comes down to style, and lug angle availabilty.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:16 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by gugie
"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Admiral Grace Hopper

"

"...stronger..." Many have claimed this, but I'd like to see some destructive testing data. Rather than do all the work here, I'll let you find that. I would say that fillet brazed, lugged, and TIG welded frame joints are "strong enough"

"...least skill..." You a framebuilder? Again, UBI teaches both methods, but you need more practice time on fillet brazing before they let you loose on real tubing.k

"...fewest specialized tools..." What specialized tools do you need for a lugged frame? Be advised I've done both.

"...easiest to repair and cover up errors..." You a framebuilder?

"...cheapest materials..." Yep, lug cost + silver brazing costs more.

It comes down to style, and lug angle availabilty.
All of this is 100% spot on.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie
"One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Admiral Grace Hopper

"...heaviest..."


Henry James bottom lug

3/16 Gasflux C-04 Nickel Bronze Rod


Practicing fillet brazing - less than one stick of bronze filler rods used on each. Pix cause it happened.

"...stronger..." Many have claimed this, but I'd like to see some destructive testing data. Rather than do all the work here, I'll let you find that. I would say that fillet brazed, lugged, and TIG welded frame joints are "strong enough"

"...least skill..." You a framebuilder? Again, UBI teaches both methods, but you need more practice time on fillet brazing before they let you loose on real tubing.k

"...fewest specialized tools..." What specialized tools do you need for a lugged frame? Be advised I've done both.

"...easiest to repair and cover up errors..." You a framebuilder?

"...cheapest materials..." Yep, lug cost + silver brazing costs more.

It comes down to style, and lug angle availabilty.
As a certified welder and journeyman Tool & Die Maker (5 year apprenticeship) who has spent decades in custom metal fabrication there is nothing special about frame building and especially fillet brazing. The fact that there are one and two week courses that teach it to complete neophytes pretty well explains it. You never see fillet welds in Aerospace, nuclear, high pressure or any other areas which require certification. Frame Building is much like the Wizard of Oz a lot of marketing and superfluous fuss yet nothing special behind the curtain.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 08-02-22 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:26 PM
  #108  
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Old 08-02-22, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
As a certified welder and journeyman Tool & Die Maker (5 year apprenticeship) who has spent decades in custom metal fabrication there is nothing special about frame building and especially fillet brazing. The fact that there are one and two week courses that teach it to complete neophytes pretty well explains it. You never see fillet welds in Aerospace, nuclear, high pressure or any other areas which require certification. Frame Building is much like the Wizard of Oz a lot of marketing and superfluous fuss yet nothing special behind the curtain.
I'm sorry, I made the mistake of feeding the troll.
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Old 08-03-22, 12:21 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by gugie
I'm sorry, I made the mistake of feeding the troll.
This means I am hopelessly addicted to supposed mediocrity. No beauty in this middling endeavor, nor even in the consideration of it (which I have)!
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Old 08-03-22, 05:19 AM
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I’m a certified internet opinionater, and I think this thread is dumbed.
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Old 08-03-22, 06:07 AM
  #112  
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I



I’ve always admired the welds on the old Klein frames….but some of the brazing photos posted on this thread make these aluminum welds look sub par!! Always great to see craftsmanship and care evident in the outcome of something built by hand.
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Old 08-03-22, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago15
I didn't create this post to talk about Mercet, but only to see the work of other framers you know who did or still do fillet brazing

I'm waiting....

Come on guys, send your pictures, possibly some heavy ....
there would be more interest in a Raleigh Super Course here.

but since the thread is about fillet brazing, the Viscount Pro.

Last edited by repechage; 08-03-22 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 08-03-22, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
As a certified welder and journeyman Tool & Die Maker (5 year apprenticeship) who has spent decades in custom metal fabrication there is nothing special about frame building and especially fillet brazing. The fact that there are one and two week courses that teach it to complete neophytes pretty well explains it. You never see fillet welds in Aerospace, nuclear, high pressure or any other areas which require certification. Frame Building is much like the Wizard of Oz a lot of marketing and superfluous fuss yet nothing special behind the curtain.
oh dear.
marketing is necessary to help keep the doors open.
you have never brazed up a set of chainstays into a bottom bracket and then found that the rear spacing is not what you fixtured it to.
build a half dozen frames and report back.
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Old 08-03-22, 09:40 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Cynikal
Currently I use 56% silver as much as I can due to the lower temperatures. I keep the lugs and braze-ons to silver but use brass on cantilever studs. There are great silver alloys that buildup like brass at lower temperatures. I have used 50n silver and about to start playing with 45% silver to start learning fillets.
I've seen pictures of Brian Chapman using 40% silver to join stainless droputs to CrMo chainstays. For those that wonder why this is important, high silver content brazing fillers don't easily build up a fillet. For slot type dropouts you need to fill up the gap between the inside of the chainstay and the dropout. Bronze rods do this easily, high silver content filler isn't viscous enough to do the job. Lower silver content fillers are more viscous.

Rather than choose between lugs and fillet brazing, you can have both in bilaminate construction (pic from Brian Chapman):

Video of the master at work: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chapma...in/dateposted/
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Old 08-03-22, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
there would be more interest in a Raleigh Super Course here.

but since the thread is about fillet brazing, the Viscount Pro.
Yeah, maybe not the best example:

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Old 08-03-22, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
As a certified welder and journeyman Tool & Die Maker (5 year apprenticeship) who has spent decades in custom metal fabrication there is nothing special about frame building and especially fillet brazing. The fact that there are one and two week courses that teach it to complete neophytes pretty well explains it. You never see fillet welds in Aerospace, nuclear, high pressure or any other areas which require certification. Frame Building is much like the Wizard of Oz a lot of marketing and superfluous fuss yet nothing special behind the curtain.
yet frames end up being hugely different based on the little details behind the curtains, some builders who may not have been the best brazers, produced frames that ride exceptionally well. Some production frames have the same rep. personally I have ridden bikes that stand out, like an 84 team miyata and surprisingly to me, mid level 84 torpado. I hope to put a custom frame to test soon
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Old 08-03-22, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by gugie
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Old 08-03-22, 11:02 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by himespau
If you love that, more Chapman bike porn can be seen here. This guy's the full package, a full constructeur. He's got his own crank and brake design, does his own paint, has great artistic skills, great photographic eye, and his videos are extremely well edited. Oh, and prolific as well.
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Old 08-03-22, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
oh dear.
marketing is necessary to help keep the doors open.
you have never brazed up a set of chainstays into a bottom bracket and then found that the rear spacing is not what you fixtured it to.
build a half dozen frames and report back.
If half a dozen frames are what it takes to master the welding of a bicycle frame, you are making my point. As far setting up the fixture correctly and ensuring alignment remains in place can be quickly learned and mastered. Anyone with a solid mechanical aptitude, patience, appropriate supplies, and some mentoring can consistently and reliably make a bicycle frame.
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Old 08-03-22, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie
If you love that, more Chapman bike porn can be seen here. This guy's the full package, a full constructeur. He's got his own crank and brake design, does his own paint, has great artistic skills, great photographic eye, and his videos are extremely well edited. Oh, and prolific as well.
And the amount of access he gives people on his Insta page is amazing. I love watching him work. He really is leading the next generation of constructeurs in the US.
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Old 08-18-22, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie
If you love that, more Chapman bike porn can be seen here. This guy's the full package, a full constructeur. He's got his own crank and brake design, does his own paint, has great artistic skills, great photographic eye, and his videos are extremely well edited. Oh, and prolific as well.
His content on Instagram is one of the best things about that app. His Cannondale Force inspired brakes (rocker and calipers all made by him) was one of recent favorites.

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Old 08-18-22, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
There is nothing special about frame building and especially fillet brazing. The fact that there are one and two week courses that teach it to complete neophytes pretty well explains it.
Attempting to convince Ayn Rand of turning over in her grave with a thorough appeal to faulty logic?
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Old 08-18-22, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Attempting to convince Ayn Rand of turning over in her grave with a thorough appeal to faulty logic?
I assume it’s 5:00 somewhere.

Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 08-19-22 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 08-19-22, 07:33 AM
  #125  
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Tom Ritchey frame I sold awhile back:










My Jeff Lyon L’avecaise





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