Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

So, I bought it...SARACEN content

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

So, I bought it...SARACEN content

Old 08-16-22, 06:53 PM
  #1  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
So, I bought it...SARACEN content

Rebecca and I were out this weekend and I got a text from the guy with the "damaged" bike.I had messaged him earlier about what I perceived as a damaged rear drop, I did not get an answer until the next day.
The text read "no damage to the RD, come by if you would like to see it. I was down south and I asked for the address and went to take a look at it, sure enough, no damage, dings or dents just a real dirty frame that had been sitting out in the weather for years. I liked the color and the frame was 22 so almost outside my range limit, but I bought it any way.
I never heard of the make in road bikes but I was familiar with their mountain bikes and they seemed to be mid range to good etc.
I would be happy for any information on the model "Super Triathlon"....

Chain off....seat post iffy, the seat stays are interesting!


Rear Drop and RD Seem alright.


Surprised to see this....no it's not a crack but a spiderweb!

No serial numbers that I can find, here or anywhere else.....the seat post is a 27.2


I will post a few more closeups before I start the tear down......sadly the angles are steeper than I thought so it may be too large for me.
It has a race tag but I wonder if it was a marketing gimmick, the lugs are worked and tapper towards the rear and the REYNOLDS decals seem original....it appears to have been ridden very little....low range, midrange?

Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors


Last edited by xiaoman1; 08-16-22 at 07:49 PM.
xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-16-22, 08:00 PM
  #2  
JulesCW 
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Upper third of the central USA
Posts: 256

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 177 Times in 112 Posts
I'd say mid-upper range -- nice tubing, Cinelli BB shell, interesting fastback seatstays. Likely a nice bike to ride.
JulesCW is offline  
Old 08-16-22, 08:10 PM
  #3  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 1,788

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Super Corsa

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1046 Post(s)
Liked 769 Times in 505 Posts
Not very high quality stay ends at the dropouts. Actually crappy. To me. (I realized I need to add this after every statement because someone will invariably respond I dont think its crappy at all!). Though recently posted old articles suggest older Italian stuff didnt have the best workmanship.

Last edited by smd4; 08-16-22 at 08:17 PM.
smd4 is offline  
Old 08-16-22, 09:19 PM
  #4  
SurferRosa
Seor Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,112

Bikes: Old school lightweights

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked 3,540 Times in 1,883 Posts
What's the red 531 decal?

SurferRosa is online now  
Old 08-16-22, 10:11 PM
  #5  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
What's the red 531 decal?


SR,
I don't know much about it other than it's "special".....Do you happen to anything about this maker or model?

Thanks, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors

xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-16-22, 10:24 PM
  #6  
Piff 
Senior Member
 
Piff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,015
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 466 Post(s)
Liked 225 Times in 145 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
What's the red 531 decal?

Seems like 531 professional to me.
Piff is offline  
Likes For Piff:
Old 08-17-22, 12:28 AM
  #7  
SurferRosa
Seor Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,112

Bikes: Old school lightweights

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked 3,540 Times in 1,883 Posts
Originally Posted by xiaoman1 View Post
I don't know much about it other than it's "special."
Originally Posted by Piff View Post
Seems like 531 professional to me.
Yeah, SL was thinner tubing than 531 and was replaced by Pro.

I had a beautiful SL frameset, and unfortunately it was too big. It was the lightest steel frame I've ever had my hands on.

I'm confused though that the Saracen doesn't have SL fork decals.
SurferRosa is online now  
Old 08-17-22, 02:43 AM
  #8  
SoccerBallXan
Full Member
 
SoccerBallXan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Arizona
Posts: 416

Bikes: Many!

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked 181 Times in 108 Posts
Bravo! Lovely acquisition!

Nothing "crappy" here. The proof is in the pudding; it's likely a few decades after this machine was built and hardly any work needs to be done to bring it back to life (or so it appears). Personally, I am a sucker for the color, a few damp rags and it'll glisten again.

Reynolds professional is nothing to scoff at, Cinelli shells are always a treat, and the Shimano EF dropouts are just fine. In fact, wouldn't the dropouts lead us to believe this is a 80's bike? I'm not familiar with the 531 timeline and where 531 pro tubing would fit in.

An "upper-mid" range bike one could be proud riding daily.
SoccerBallXan is offline  
Likes For SoccerBallXan:
Old 08-17-22, 07:44 AM
  #9  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Yeah, SL was thinner tubing than 531 and was replaced by Pro.

I had a beautiful SL frameset, and unfortunately it was too big. It was the lightest steel frame I've ever had my hands on.

I'm confused though that the Saracen doesn't have SL fork decals.
SR,
I saw that too and not sure why but that appear original...maybe no "special" fork decals?....stuff happens, is there any way to tell about the tubing, seat stays?
Best, Ben


Originally Posted by SoccerBallXan View Post
Bravo! Lovely acquisition!

Nothing "crappy" here. The proof is in the pudding; it's likely a few decades after this machine was built and hardly any work needs to be done to bring it back to life (or so it appears). Personally, I am a sucker for the color, a few damp rags and it'll glisten again.

Reynolds professional is nothing to scoff at, Cinelli shells are always a treat, and the Shimano EF dropouts are just fine. In fact, wouldn't the dropouts lead us to believe this is a 80's bike? I'm not familiar with the 531 timeline and where 531 pro tubing would fit in.

An "upper-mid" range bike one could be proud riding daily.
SBX,
On initial tear down the frame is very light (to me) and the paint looks to be in great shape other than a few nicks and as you said should polish/clean up nicely....any thoughts on the seat stays?
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors


Last edited by xiaoman1; 08-17-22 at 08:57 AM.
xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 10:58 AM
  #10  
SoCaled 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: SoCal
Posts: 696

Bikes: 1988 "Pinalized Rockma", 1983 Trek 720, 1984 Trek 510, PK Ripper 29'er, Schwinn Circuit, Bianchi Strada, 1980's Peugeot - City, US & Canyon Express & Pipeline VI (6), Centurion RS Elite

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 185 Post(s)
Liked 473 Times in 294 Posts
Glad you grabbed this, I had seen the "damage" before I had posted this bike, but was not sure what I was looking at exactly. Now that you have the bike that original picture, we were struggling over, suddenly seems clear - Just a shadow.

SoCaled is online now  
Old 08-17-22, 11:38 AM
  #11  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by SoCaled View Post
Glad you grabbed this, I had seen the "damage" before I had posted this bike, but was not sure what I was looking at exactly. Now that you have the bike that original picture, we were struggling over, suddenly seems clear - Just a shadow.
SoCaled,
Yes, strange how the photos seemed to show damage. I'll post a few more pics later today and start a clean and lube in a few days. I am still not sure what I have, the frame is nice and light with some nice details, but nothing much on the web etc. I am hoping to get a bit more information from forum members.
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors

xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 02:05 PM
  #12  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,028
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 578 Times in 451 Posts
When Reynolds revised the line (and graphics on the decals) around '82 and afterward, the tubesets also got some revisions, 531 'Super Lightweight" (AKA Red Label 531) transitioned to "Professional".
Tho the OP's example has the post '82 style frame decal, the original "Red SL" came with green label triangle transfers for the forkblades and presume that Saracen either was being very honest about what blades they built the fork with, or could be they lost the red blade decals (or built this one with mixed vintage).
In any case I don't think it's any frame to sniff at, even if the stay ends were left domed. BTW I don't know who made that seat lug but yest it's interesting and deserves some close-ups. Appears to be IC, which the early-ish Cinelli BB shell is too (that's a SCM model shell, replaced by the CCM with chainstay sockets "rotated 90 degrees")
Congrats on the purchase!
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 03:23 PM
  #13  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
A
Red 531 on seat tube

Seat Tube

Rear Brake bridge unworthy1
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors

xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 03:46 PM
  #14  
SurferRosa
Seor Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,112

Bikes: Old school lightweights

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked 3,540 Times in 1,883 Posts
Oh, it's Pro, not SL. Even sweeter. I read that SL was discontinued in '81.

Seems a little strange to see the shifter band and nutted brakes.
SurferRosa is online now  
Old 08-17-22, 04:59 PM
  #15  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Oh, it's Pro, not SL. Even sweeter. I read that SL was discontinued in '81.

Seems a little strange to see the shifter band and nutted brakes.
SR,
I agree, there are few anomalies (racing tab, the seat stay and no serial number etc.), but the original owner said this is the way it came so who know for sure......is "Pro" lighter?
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors

xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 05:24 PM
  #16  
Kabuki12
Senior Member
 
Kabuki12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ventura County ,California
Posts: 2,409

Bikes: 71 Stella,72 Mondia Special,72 ItalVega Grand Rallye, 73 Windsor Pro,75 Colnago Super,76 Kabuki DF,77 Raleigh Comp.GS,78 Raleigh Pro,80 Moto Gran Sprint,82 Medici Pro Strada

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 558 Post(s)
Liked 1,228 Times in 723 Posts
That looks like it will clean up nicely. I have never heard of these but it seems to be built well from what I can see. I look forward to updates as you move along with the build.
Kabuki12 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 06:23 PM
  #17  
SurferRosa
Seor Member
 
SurferRosa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,112

Bikes: Old school lightweights

Mentioned: 75 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2562 Post(s)
Liked 3,540 Times in 1,883 Posts
Originally Posted by xiaoman1 View Post
is "Pro" lighter than SL?
In the stays, I think so.
SurferRosa is online now  
Old 08-17-22, 06:43 PM
  #18  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
When Reynolds revised the line (and graphics on the decals) around '82 and afterward, the tubesets also got some revisions, 531 'Super Lightweight" (AKA Red Label 531) transitioned to "Professional".
Tho the OP's example has the post '82 style frame decal, the original "Red SL" came with green label triangle transfers for the forkblades and presume that Saracen either was being very honest about what blades they built the fork with, or could be they lost the red blade decals (or built this one with mixed vintage).
In any case I don't think it's any frame to sniff at, even if the stay ends were left domed. BTW I don't know who made that seat lug but yest it's interesting and deserves some close-ups. Appears to be IC, which the early-ish Cinelli BB shell is too (that's a SCM model shell, replaced by the CCM with chainstay sockets "rotated 90 degrees")
Congrats on the purchase!
unworthy1,
I am a bit embarrassed to say, but I am unfamiliar with acronyms that you are using, will you please clarify?
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors

xiaoman1 is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 09:51 PM
  #19  
Biketiger
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 181

Bikes: Track bike: 1978 Speedwell titanium Road bike: 2001 Independent Fabrication

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 78 Post(s)
Liked 72 Times in 44 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Not very high quality stay ends at the dropouts. Actually crappy. To me. (I realized I need to add this after every statement because someone will invariably respond “I don’t think it’s crappy at all!”). Though recently posted old articles suggest older Italian stuff didn’t have the best workmanship.
Why do you think the stay ends are "crappy"? Your opinion would be more valuable if you offered an explanation.
Biketiger is offline  
Old 08-17-22, 11:49 PM
  #20  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,028
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1027 Post(s)
Liked 578 Times in 451 Posts
Ben,
I used some abbreviations like "IC" for investment-casting" which is a modern iteration of the ancient process of "lost-wax" casting for jewelry.
But in this case there isn't a sacrificial wax pattern that gets melted away in the mold, and the casting is with steel, not a precious metal.
Domed ends were what Reynolds did as 'stock' finishing to the ends of the chain and seat stays, so it's considered kind of "generic" and many builders make a point of cutting away the domes and making these joints special and "signature".
I don't know what the CCM and SCM stand for with Cinelli BB shells (maybe Super Corsa Model?) but the early version has the pointed tips of the chain stay sockets at top and bottom which (it is said) sometimes resulted in "can opener" failures of those stays ( I never saw any pix of this) so Cinelli revised the orientation with the CCM version and the points are "sideways".
I think the seat lug is a standard IC unit, might have been sold as "Cinelli" could have been made for them by another outfit but almost certainly Italian, and in this case Saracen just routed the seat stays to the ears and voila: it's a fastback
HTH
(acronym for Hope This Helps)

Last edited by unworthy1; 08-17-22 at 11:53 PM.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 08-18-22, 12:09 AM
  #21  
Chombi1 
Senior Member
 
Chombi1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,948
Mentioned: 100 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1407 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 522 Times in 353 Posts
Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Not very high quality stay ends at the dropouts. Actually crappy. To me. (I realized I need to add this after every statement because someone will invariably respond I dont think its crappy at all!). Though recently posted old articles suggest older Italian stuff didnt have the best workmanship.
Yes, the domed stay ends are what you might find on a not-so-expensive bike like a Peugeot. I wouldn't say they are "crappy", more like "plain".......
__________________
72 Line Seeker
83 Davidson Signature
84 Peugeot PSV
84 Peugeot PY10FC
84 Gitane Tour de France.
85 Vitus Plus Carbone 7
86 ALAN Record Carbonio
86 Medici Aerodynamic (Project)
88 Pinarello Montello
89 Bottecchia Professional Chorus SL
95 Trek 5500 OCLV (Project)
Chombi1 is online now  
Old 08-18-22, 05:53 AM
  #22  
avecReynolds531
Junior Member
 
avecReynolds531's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: ...small island...
Posts: 83
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Liked 93 Times in 40 Posts
Interesting find & thread. Through researching the origins of a 531 bike from the early 80s (also with domed ends at the dropouts), I learned of a link between Saracen and Knight Cycles.

One of the original Knight frame builders was said to have emigrated to the USA: a bikeforums post shows an example of the frameset: eBay / CraigsList finds - "Are you looking for one of these!?" Part II

Also included is the Classic Lightweights article for reference: https://www.classiclightweights.co.u...knight-cycles/
avecReynolds531 is offline  
Old 08-18-22, 06:26 AM
  #23  
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 12,896
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3432 Post(s)
Liked 2,179 Times in 1,288 Posts
Cool find. Looking forward to seeing it built up.
himespau is online now  
Old 08-18-22, 07:31 AM
  #24  
smd4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 1,788

Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Super Corsa

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1046 Post(s)
Liked 769 Times in 505 Posts
Originally Posted by Biketiger View Post
Why do you think the stay ends are "crappy"? Your opinion would be more valuable if you offered an explanation.
Look at the chainstay end in the second photo posted in the first post. Its not even close to being symmetrical. Crappy workmanship. In my opinion.
smd4 is offline  
Old 08-18-22, 05:13 PM
  #25  
xiaoman1 
Awaiting Parole
Thread Starter
 
xiaoman1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City of Angels
Posts: 4,757

Bikes: A few too many

Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 1,652 Times in 916 Posts
Originally Posted by unworthy1 View Post
Ben,
I used some abbreviations like "IC" for investment-casting" which is a modern iteration of the ancient process of "lost-wax" casting for jewelry.
But in this case there isn't a sacrificial wax pattern that gets melted away in the mold, and the casting is with steel, not a precious metal.
Domed ends were what Reynolds did as 'stock' finishing to the ends of the chain and seat stays, so it's considered kind of "generic" and many builders make a point of cutting away the domes and making these joints special and "signature".
I don't know what the CCM and SCM stand for with Cinelli BB shells (maybe Super Corsa Model?) but the early version has the pointed tips of the chain stay sockets at top and bottom which (it is said) sometimes resulted in "can opener" failures of those stays ( I never saw any pix of this) so Cinelli revised the orientation with the CCM version and the points are "sideways".
I think the seat lug is a standard IC unit, might have been sold as "Cinelli" could have been made for them by another outfit but almost certainly Italian, and in this case Saracen just routed the seat stays to the ears and voila: it's a fastback
HTH
(acronym for Hope This Helps)
unworthy1,
Thanks for the clarification, I have heard the phrases many times but did not PTTT (put 2&2 together ) and starting the initial clean up. The parts that I have cleaned are looking good and I really like the color.

A few detail pictures of the seat lug....



Finally got the seat post out

Detail of the seat Lug

Bonus, the Water Bottle has the bikes brand name on it.
Best, Ben
__________________
"STAND UP FOR WHAT IS RIGHT EVEN IF YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE STANDING"
Voice recognition may sometimes create odd spelling and grammatical errors


Last edited by xiaoman1; 08-19-22 at 09:56 AM.
xiaoman1 is offline  
Likes For xiaoman1:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.