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If you would have to pick one derailleur

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If you would have to pick one derailleur

Old 10-15-22, 01:03 PM
  #76  
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The Campagnolo Record 10 speed derailleur pictured earlier in the thread is the finest of all time….In the C&V theme, though, this is my choice:


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Old 10-15-22, 01:24 PM
  #77  
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I have to add that my experience with the Campy NR was that it was the slowest shifting RD I ever used on my bikes. It also required the most amount of lever travel to overshift so the chain would properly shift on to the chosen gear.
Yup, the NR is built like a tank, beautiful and very well finished, but I think it had alway been coveted by riders, taken in by a lot of hype that always surrounded the old Italian brand.
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Old 10-15-22, 02:03 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
I have to add that my experience with the Campy NR was that it was the slowest shifting RD I ever used on my bikes. It also required the most amount of lever travel to overshift so the chain would properly shift on to the chosen gear.
Yup, the NR is built like a tank, beautiful and very well finished, but I think it had alway been coveted by riders, taken in by a lot of hype that always surrounded the old Italian brand.
My sentiment exactly. Makes an old bike look right and shift poorly.
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Old 10-15-22, 04:18 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
I have to add that my experience with the Campy NR was that it was the slowest shifting RD I ever used on my bikes. It also required the most amount of lever travel to overshift so the chain would properly shift on to the chosen gear.
Yup, the NR is built like a tank, beautiful and very well finished, but I think it had alway been coveted by riders, taken in by a lot of hype that always surrounded the old Italian brand.
Not the first time I've read this. I can't comment because I never owned one. But I do have a third-gen Gran Sport. Shifts fine. So I can't believe NR shifts worse.

So hype? There was something better in 1966? Also, how much "performance" do you need. What does "slow" mean? I owned 7700 when it was new. Sure, "better" than Gran Sport, but so what? I don't need to shave a few seconds to get a PR because not only is meaningless, in reality it is an excuse to spend less time on a bike. Talk about stupidity.

And if "performance", as this thread clearly favors, is it, why in the **** would anyone use old janky crap? Get Ekar, etap or di2. Otherwise, how about a shout out for the Simplex TdF then. Had a run of nearly a decade of dominance until that pesky Italian innovated the parallelogram derailleur.
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Old 10-15-22, 10:51 PM
  #80  
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If by "pick one derailleur" you mean "pick the one rear derailleur you'd have on every bike you'll ever own for the rest of your life, no matter how many bikes that is, or what kind of riding you'll be doing on them, or how long you'll be riding them" my answer world be the blue-colored 9-speed Deore LX.

Shifts as well as the (lovely and awesome) XTR as shown above.
About as reliable as a hammer.
Plentiful and not particularly desirable, ergo... cheap and easy to find.
Kinda neat looking.

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Old 10-15-22, 11:12 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
I am at the C&V Forum, am I not?

If so, I am ASHAMED of you, ALL of you!

Campagnolo Nuovo Record is the ONLY answer (front and rear).
Every time I work on my Paramount with its Campy stuff, I appreciate the quality but it’s astonishing such basic function and awful styling survived into the 1970s. The engraving is like some 19th century revolver and not a great one. This is from the same era as the Concorde and the moon landings? Really?
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Old 10-16-22, 12:32 AM
  #82  
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Mavic SSC.
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Old 10-16-22, 12:55 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Every time I work on my Paramount with its Campy stuff, I appreciate the quality but it’s astonishing such basic function and awful styling survived into the 1970s. The engraving is like some 19th century revolver and not a great one. This is from the same era as the Concorde and the moon landings? Really?
It's not engraving. It's part of the casting, part of the mold. The cast surfaces are an aesthetic unto themselves.

I've seen people do drillium, in-fill with paint, polish the high spots,... all sorts of things to change the aesthetic. Campagnolo even changed the aesthetics when they went to Super Record.


P.S. - You did see the smiley in the post you quoted, right?

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Old 10-17-22, 01:43 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Retoocs View Post
Mavic SSC.
Although the Mavic SSC RD is very servicable as it can be totally dismantled and all parts replaced and it's jockey wheel cage height adjustable, plus it looks really cool, I wouldn't consider it's shifting performance to be one of the best.
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Old 10-17-22, 01:56 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
Not the first time I've read this. I can't comment because I never owned one. But I do have a third-gen Gran Sport. Shifts fine. So I can't believe NR shifts worse.

So hype? There was something better in 1966? Also, how much "performance" do you need. What does "slow" mean? I owned 7700 when it was new. Sure, "better" than Gran Sport, but so what? I don't need to shave a few seconds to get a PR because not only is meaningless, in reality it is an excuse to spend less time on a bike. Talk about stupidity.

And if "performance", as this thread clearly favors, is it, why in the **** would anyone use old janky crap? Get Ekar, etap or di2. Otherwise, how about a shout out for the Simplex TdF then. Had a run of nearly a decade of dominance until that pesky Italian innovated the parallelogram derailleur.
Slow shifting as requiring more shift lever travel before anything happens....
1966??... We are talking about using these derrailleurs in the present.... thus the unjustified continuing hype for these old, albeit pretty, NR RDs plus Campy really stretched out selling the NR to periods overlapping many of the derailleurs mentioned that performed much better. It was pretty much mechanically obsolete, compared to it's main competition RDs ( Suntour, Shimano and even Simplex,) by the 80's.
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Old 10-17-22, 03:28 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Although the Mavic SSC RD is very servicable as it can be totally dismantled and all parts replaced and it's jockey wheel cage height adjustable, plus it looks really cool, I wouldn't consider it's shifting performance to be one of the best.
During my retrogrouch phase in the 90's, I went from racing with Dura-Ace STI to using Simplex retro friction downtube levers with Dura-ace derailleur and eventually to the SSC derailleurs when I got a hold of some NOS. Even during crit races, never had an issue with the shifting. The fact is the shifter makes a bigger difference follow by the Hyperglide cogs allowing the chain to ride on two cogs at the same time. The adjustable pulley cage just sweetened the feel.
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Old 10-17-22, 08:11 AM
  #87  
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A Suntour VX-GT is always a great choice for a friction touring derailleur. I am hoarding the ones that I have.
For indexing a 7 or 8 speed, you can’t beat the value of a Shimano M360 Acera.
For close ratio use a Suntour Superbe Pro is best.
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Old 10-17-22, 09:04 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by ShannonM View Post
About as reliable as a hammer.


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Winner, winner, chicken dinner. 😁👍
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Old 10-17-22, 05:55 PM
  #89  
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This thread inspired me to take inventory of the fleet, at least as far as rear derailleurs are concerned (I tend to mix and match FDs for functionality):

1 x Campagnolo Potenza (11 sp)
1 x Campagnolo Veloce (8 sp)
1 x SunTour Cyclone
1 x SunTour Superbe
1 x SRAM Rival
1 x Shimano Deerhead
1 x Shimano Deore LX
2 x Shimano Ultegra
6 x Shimano XTR

XTR is the winner here mostly because of its large-cog and chain wrap capacities and its versatility. I'm running it in 8-speed index setups with Campy Veloce 10-speed brifters, with 8-speed Shimano bar ends, and with friction thumbies. Perhaps not surprising, the two SunTour derailleurs are on the two older vintage bikes in the fleet that aren't running internal-gear hubs.
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Old 10-17-22, 06:32 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by Chombi1 View Post
Slow shifting as requiring more shift lever travel before anything happens....
1966??... We are talking about using these derrailleurs in the present.... thus the unjustified continuing hype for these old, albeit pretty, NR RDs plus Campy really stretched out selling the NR to periods overlapping many of the derailleurs mentioned that performed much better. It was pretty much mechanically obsolete, compared to it's main competition RDs ( Suntour, Shimano and even Simplex,) by the 80's.
Well duh. Yes, derailleurs developed after 1966 stand a chance to have better performance. Again, buy Ekar, di2 or etap. Shifts better than NR. But this ain't the 41. Debating performance here is silly.

NR has 2mm more throw than "insert best derailleur here" when shifting. This is not rhetorical. So ******g what? Why exactly does that matter?

And Campagnolo sold those obsolete derailleurs because they could. No other reason is needed.
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Old 10-17-22, 06:35 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by iab View Post
But this ain't the 41. Debating performance here is silly.
Debated performance on the 41 is also silly.
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Old 10-17-22, 09:20 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by vonfilm View Post
A Suntour VX-GT is always a great choice for a friction touring derailleur. I am hoarding the ones that I have.
For indexing a 7 or 8 speed, you can’t beat the value of a Shimano M360 Acera.
For close ratio use a Suntour Superbe Pro is best.
Vx-gts are almost free and just shift terrifically.
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Old 10-17-22, 11:17 PM
  #93  
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One thing that isn't fair to these old derailer's makers is to judge their shifting performance using flexible, modern chain.

Even Suntour's and Shimano's chain gaps were pretty huge back then, especially on touring models like the V-GT and Tourney GS.
But it mattered much less when we were all using traditional "bushed" chains that had so much less lateral flex.
So, when using modern chain on my vintage bikes, I'll often figure out some way to reduce the chain gap, by either adjusting the spring tension balance between the cage pivot and mounting pivot (typically Shimano, Simplex or Gran Turismo), or by removing the B-tension screw or even grinding metal from the locating lug where the B-tension screw used to be (Suntour).
All of the above in addition to fine-tuning the chain length and axle position (with derailers having an cage pivot offset from the guide pulley).

I give the Allvit high marks for it's clever, inverted, "knee-action" tracking of the freewheel's outer profile, especially as it's design traces back to the late 1950's.
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Old 10-18-22, 05:00 AM
  #94  
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I think it might be useful to point out that none of these derailleurs shift by themselves….They all require operator input. While it may be fashionable to throw some shade on the older Campagnolo derailleurs, In my opinion they do (did) their jobs admirably. They do require a bit more finesse than a simple”push the lever slowly in the desired direction until the gear change occurs”, but that is just a relatively simple skill to be mastered. To criticize them while not having mastered that technique is a bit like claiming that the automatic transmission in a Ford Pinto is better than the 5 speed transmission in a Ferrari because the operator may not know how to use a manual transmission. I will also point out that shifting was but one job performed by a derailleur. A Campagnolo NR or SR rear derailleur (or a Simplex straight parallelogram model) facilitated a much easier and faster wheel change in a race than a Shimano or SunTour.
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Old 10-18-22, 05:26 AM
  #95  
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Suntour Cyclone GT or Shimano M900.
I have two Cyclones, one is a spare. My last M900 group was on my old Spez S Works that I sold in 2013.
These days, it's old Shimano XT M750 or the aforementioned Cyclone. I don't need more than that.
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Old 10-18-22, 06:03 AM
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I like that the performance of selections are based on personal experience. I am sure for a given configuration the perception of performance would vary.
I have been an admirer of the NR since about 1968. It is like a Ducati Naked bike with just the material needed to perform and exposing the mechanics of how it works.
My experience reflects most of the negative comments, especially the disappointment on the Motobecane Le Champion with Suntour Ultra 6 with the matching chain.
LC_Drive_01 on Flickr

The Super Record was not much of an improvement until I used a limited range block. It shifts perfectly, for C&V on the '83 Colnago with a, perish the thought, Regina 13/22 7 speed using a PC870 chain.
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With the limited riding I do, the more recent Campagnolo Racing T RD and crank on the Pin Montello do the job I can't do on the Colnago, 13-26 block, 52/42/30 rings. The FD happens to be a Record 10v that was affordable on the bay.
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I don't have much riding time on the Trek 760 but enough o tell you the Suntour Superbe Pro brakes and indexed shifting rival any of my other bikes.
P1040452 on Flickr

But that's just my limited experience.

I have a V-GT for a '74 Raleigh GP Mixte which hasn't worked out yet.
@iab - How about the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa? Talk about historic.
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Old 10-18-22, 08:02 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by SJX426 View Post
I have been an admirer of the NR since about 1968. It is like a Ducati Naked bike with just the material needed to perform and exposing the mechanics of how it works.
In that vein, I like the minimalism of the Huret Jubilee and its low-budget cousin, the Svelto:
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Old 10-18-22, 08:38 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by El Chaba View Post
I think it might be useful to point out that none of these derailleurs shift by themselves….They all require operator input. While it may be fashionable to throw some shade on the older Campagnolo derailleurs, In my opinion they do (did) their jobs admirably. They do require a bit more finesse than a simple”push the lever slowly in the desired direction until the gear change occurs”, but that is just a relatively simple skill to be mastered. To criticize them while not having mastered that technique is a bit like claiming that the automatic transmission in a Ford Pinto is better than the 5 speed transmission in a Ferrari because the operator may not know how to use a manual transmission.
Yeah, I mean, as a car guy and someone who's used the derailleurs in question, I'd say NR/SR and Le Cyclo and Jubilee and whatnot are more akin to a non-synchromesh manual, or at in some cases a rather notchy baulky early synchromesh box like you'd find on an old Citroen or Saab.

Certainly the early early stuff like the Vittoria Margherita and the Cambio Corsa are like trying to shift a tractor with a hand throttle - lots of "feel" but quite a bit of difficulty to do it on the go. Much easier to do it stopped and then restart!

Then, the refined Japanese derailleurs with slant parallelograms are similar to the refined Japanese car gearboxes from the '80s onward. As long as they're used competently, they are light work.

Old automatic is indexed shifting. Modern automatic? That is di2 or whatever. gross.

Anyway, hands down I'd prefer to drive a modernish manual Honda in traffic than an old model A, even for all the character it has, and even though I can do both. But the old car is charming and fun once in a while so I am happy I know how. Double clutching is a lot of fun, but not for every day, that's all I'm saying.

I will also point out that shifting was but one job performed by a derailleur. A Campagnolo NR or SR rear derailleur (or a Simplex straight parallelogram model) facilitated a much easier and faster wheel change in a race than a Shimano or SunTour.
This is a great point, and to my mind a lot of what distinguished Campy from the rest of the pack when they came out with the Gran Sport. Taking the wheel off of a Le Cyclo equipped bike is such a chore. Nivex solved it with complex special dropouts and axles. An engineering tour de force. But Campy solved it pretty darn elegantly and accessibly and easily retrofittably and there's a reason it stuck around.
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Old 10-18-22, 01:22 PM
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"If you would have to pick one derailleur"

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Old 10-19-22, 07:36 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by El Chaba View Post
A Campagnolo NR or SR rear derailleur (or a Simplex straight parallelogram model) facilitated a much easier and faster wheel change in a race than a Shimano or SunTour.
I don't know. The old SunTour V-GT type units with the open pulley cage allowed you to get the chain out of the way easily:

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