Can. Someone please explain how a headset gets “shot”?
11-17-22, 08:20 PM
#2
It's MY mountain
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mt.Diablo
Posts: 9,772
Bikes: Klein, Merckx, Trek
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3831 Post(s)
Liked 2,310 Times
in
1,249 Posts
1. Rust
2. No lube or contaminated lube
3. Hard hits (pot holes and bumps)
4. Ridden while loose
2. No lube or contaminated lube
3. Hard hits (pot holes and bumps)
4. Ridden while loose
11-17-22, 08:33 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,374
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 841 Post(s)
Liked 911 Times
in
384 Posts
5. Overtightening
11-17-22, 08:42 PM
#4
aka: Dr. Cannondale
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 7,329
Bikes: Bob Jackson, Wizard, Pegoretti Duende, Merckx ProSLX, Pelizzoli, Cannondale ST, Schwinn Tempo, Schwinn Voyageur, Canyon Endurace, Richard Sachs, Davidson Discovery
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1934 Post(s)
Liked 2,368 Times
in
897 Posts
Age and use. Everything has a life span.
Even me.
Even me.
__________________
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Hard at work in the Secret Underground Laboratory...
Likes For rccardr:
11-17-22, 08:47 PM
#5
Catching Smallmouth
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: In a boat
Posts: 552
Bikes: 1990 Specialized Sirrus Triple, 1985 Trek 460, 2005 Lemond Tourmalet, 1984 Schwinn LeTour 'Luxe, 1988 Trek 400T, 1985 Trek 450, 1997 Lemond Zurich, 1993 Diamond Back Apex, 1988 Schwinn Circuit, 1988 Schwinn Prologue, 1978 Trek TX700, Sannino
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times
in
61 Posts
Usually the crown race goes first. Sometimes you can bring them back to life by repacking with loose balls. I've picked up new crown races for the Tange Levin and just replaced that too.
11-17-22, 08:47 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,503
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3992 Post(s)
Liked 2,880 Times
in
1,872 Posts
And just plain wear. If the balls always get rolled back to the same position, eventually that spot will wear. (A good way to prevent that is to spin the fork 360 degrees every so often. Too bad only kid's bikes and stunt bikes can do that without removing the front brake, the front wheel, fender, rack, handlebars ...)
Better headsets go further. Poor headsets aren't worth paying for if you plan to ride the bike. Not when a Tange headset for less than $40 will go an easy 8000 miles (if the conditions of the posters above are met). Chris Kings go much further. So do the roller Stronglights, (Tanges are easy because of both the price and the fact that Tange makes them to so many different standards and most of their headsets mix and match beautifully.)
Better headsets go further. Poor headsets aren't worth paying for if you plan to ride the bike. Not when a Tange headset for less than $40 will go an easy 8000 miles (if the conditions of the posters above are met). Chris Kings go much further. So do the roller Stronglights, (Tanges are easy because of both the price and the fact that Tange makes them to so many different standards and most of their headsets mix and match beautifully.)
Likes For 79pmooney:
11-17-22, 08:52 PM
#7
Partially Sane.
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Sunny Sacramento.
Posts: 3,562
Bikes: Soma Saga, pre-disc
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 971 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 638 Times
in
463 Posts
Originally Posted by rccardr
Age and use. Everything has a life span.
Even me.
Even me.
Hey, what's this doing in my pile'o'smilies?🦃 🤔
11-17-22, 09:22 PM
#8
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,054
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1227 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4333 Post(s)
Liked 4,426 Times
in
1,880 Posts
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
11-17-22, 10:40 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,377
Mentioned: 441 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3370 Post(s)
Liked 5,063 Times
in
2,100 Posts
Too tight, too loose, too old.
11-17-22, 10:54 PM
#10
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,054
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1227 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4333 Post(s)
Liked 4,426 Times
in
1,880 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner
Too tight, too loose, too old.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
Likes For gugie:
11-18-22, 12:02 AM
#11
señor miembro
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,933
Bikes: Old school lightweights
Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2957 Post(s)
Liked 4,281 Times
in
2,271 Posts
I'd rather have it a little tight than at all loose. 
11-18-22, 05:55 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,059
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2838 Post(s)
Liked 1,996 Times
in
1,248 Posts
You pull out your trusty Red Ryder and shoot it full of BBs. Be careful or you might shoot your eye out. 
11-18-22, 06:12 AM
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 9,127
Bikes: '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1436 Post(s)
Liked 1,774 Times
in
897 Posts
The Bianchi that joined the stall has its original head set which is integrated. There are 35 balls top and bottom. Amazingly, it is in great shape despite being 51 years old.
PXL_20221028_121629414 on Flickr
The Frejus has a stock Frejus head set that feels good and looks fine and it is 54 years old.
68FrejusHTUpperLug on Flickr
The 83 Colnago has a Super Record HS with a crown race that is split. It is smooth as silk and is original..'
P9201322 on Flickr
I have been blessed with used bikes whith good HS.
PXL_20221028_121629414 on FlickrThe Frejus has a stock Frejus head set that feels good and looks fine and it is 54 years old.
68FrejusHTUpperLug on FlickrThe 83 Colnago has a Super Record HS with a crown race that is split. It is smooth as silk and is original..'
P9201322 on FlickrI have been blessed with used bikes whith good HS.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
11-18-22, 03:25 PM
#14
Senior Member
Originally Posted by seypat
You pull out your trusty Red Ryder and shoot it full of BBs. Be careful or you might shoot your eye out.
Or maybe both.
11-18-22, 04:06 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,233
Mentioned: 638 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4707 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2,989 Times
in
1,850 Posts
Besides all the previously mentioned factors. misaligned cups do a fantastic job of accelerating the wear.
11-18-22, 04:38 PM
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,377
Mentioned: 441 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3370 Post(s)
Liked 5,063 Times
in
2,100 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner
Too tight, too loose, too old.
Originally Posted by gugie
You talkin’ ‘bout headsets?
Likes For iab:
11-19-22, 11:15 AM
#18
Banned.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 12,394
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2586 Post(s)
Liked 4,770 Times
in
1,697 Posts
Don't forget the elements, particularly those suspended in rainwater spraying the lower cup during inclement weather.
'Keep it dry, it'll never die' is a good rule of thumb
DD
'Keep it dry, it'll never die' is a good rule of thumb
DD
11-19-22, 11:59 AM
#19
Senior Member
Volunteering at a high-volume bike Co-op, the #1 cause of 'shot' headsets that we see is false brinelling which leads to 'indexed steering'. You have to think at an atomic level to fully understand this problem, and it has little to do with everything previously mentioned, except perhaps excessive bearing preload. Google it.
Likes For Dave Mayer:
11-19-22, 01:33 PM
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 12,082
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 240 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3790 Post(s)
Liked 4,457 Times
in
2,664 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Volunteering at a high-volume bike Co-op, the #1 cause of 'shot' headsets that we see is false brinelling which leads to 'indexed steering'. You have to think at an atomic level to fully understand this problem, and it has little to do with everything previously mentioned, except perhaps excessive bearing preload. Google it.
11-20-22, 11:10 AM
#21
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,054
Bikes: It's complicated.
Mentioned: 1227 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4333 Post(s)
Liked 4,426 Times
in
1,880 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner
did you have your annual review?
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
11-20-22, 05:40 PM
#22
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,201
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Mentioned: 148 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3244 Post(s)
Liked 2,645 Times
in
1,537 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Volunteering at a high-volume bike Co-op, the #1 cause of 'shot' headsets that we see is false brinelling which leads to 'indexed steering'. You have to think at an atomic level to fully understand this problem, and it has little to do with everything previously mentioned, except perhaps excessive bearing preload. Google it.
From the late Jobst Brandt:
Ball bearings make metal-to-metal contact only under fretting loads
(microscopic oscillations) while the bearing is not turning. Any
perceptible steering motion will replenish lubricant from the oily
meniscus surrounding the contact patch. Peering over the bars at the
front hub while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not arise at the
fork end, but at the fork crown, as it bends the steer tube. Both
head bearings rotate in fretting motion crosswise to the normal plane
of rotation, as the steer tube bends. Dimples form in the forward and
rearward quadrant of both upper and lower bearings from this fretting.
That they also form in the upper bearing shows they are not directly
load related.
Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal contact to
form microscopic welds between balls and races. These welds
repeatedly tear material from the softer of the two causing the
elliptical milky dimples in the races. Were these brinelling marks
(embossed through force), they would be shiny and smooth. Various
testimonials for the durability of one bearing over another are more
likely caused by the lubricant than the design of the bearing. The
rigidly mounted ball bearing has survived longer as a head bearing
than it should, considering its poor performance record.
(microscopic oscillations) while the bearing is not turning. Any
perceptible steering motion will replenish lubricant from the oily
meniscus surrounding the contact patch. Peering over the bars at the
front hub while coasting down a road at 20+ mph you will notice the
fork ends vibrating fore and aft. This motion does not arise at the
fork end, but at the fork crown, as it bends the steer tube. Both
head bearings rotate in fretting motion crosswise to the normal plane
of rotation, as the steer tube bends. Dimples form in the forward and
rearward quadrant of both upper and lower bearings from this fretting.
That they also form in the upper bearing shows they are not directly
load related.
Lubrication failure from fretting causes metal to metal contact to
form microscopic welds between balls and races. These welds
repeatedly tear material from the softer of the two causing the
elliptical milky dimples in the races. Were these brinelling marks
(embossed through force), they would be shiny and smooth. Various
testimonials for the durability of one bearing over another are more
likely caused by the lubricant than the design of the bearing. The
rigidly mounted ball bearing has survived longer as a head bearing
than it should, considering its poor performance record.
Last edited by JohnDThompson; 11-20-22 at 05:44 PM.
Likes For JohnDThompson:
11-22-22, 01:55 PM
#24
Senior Member
Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
It's fretting damage due to lubrication failure. Unlike hubs, pedals, bottom brackets, etc., headset are not in constant rotation when in use. Stationary balls under load will displace the lubrication between the ball and the race, allowing microscopic welds to form, which tear out when the ball is eventually rotated, leaving a pit. These pits grow over time, allowing the balls to fall into them and causing the "indexed steering" effect.
How you deal with false brinelling? Disassemble the headset. The pits or dimples are always on the lower crown race and cup. Remove the ball-bearing retainer which houses roughly 20 or so balls. Replace this with a greater number of loose balls of the same size as original. Basically pack the race with as many balls as you can minus one. Now the new larger quantity of balls cannot line-up with the old pits. Presto: you've doubled the life of your old headset, with no apparent deterioration in headset smoothness or tightness.
11-22-22, 02:09 PM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,503
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 119 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3992 Post(s)
Liked 2,880 Times
in
1,872 Posts
And the fun take:
This just might happen literally if you ride through a gang war. My Mooney got bombed, exactly on the handlebar/stem. By a seagull. Fortunately, no explosion. Both bicycle and rider survived. (I don't think this was an accident. I doubt the typical gang member is anywhere near as good a shot.)
Can. Someone please explain how a headset gets “shot”?
This just might happen literally if you ride through a gang war. My Mooney got bombed, exactly on the handlebar/stem. By a seagull. Fortunately, no explosion. Both bicycle and rider survived. (I don't think this was an accident. I doubt the typical gang member is anywhere near as good a shot.)
