Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Question about vintage Raleigh Competition

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Question about vintage Raleigh Competition

Old 12-07-22, 11:22 AM
  #1  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Question about vintage Raleigh Competition

Hey all:

I'm going on Friday to look at one of these, offered for a great price. It was an object of lust for me back when they were new, but way out of my means. This one is probably 1974-1976.

I normally ride a 23" frame (about 59 cm). The seller says this one is 61cm, but with a standover height of 32 1/2" .That's identical to my current ride, a 1987 Schwinn Super Sport. I just don't know how to understand that compared to the 58cm frame of the Super Sport. The standover sounds fine to me, but I'm unsure of how the Raleigh sizing matches up to what I'm used to. The catalog lists these at 22 1/2" and 23 1/2". How do those sizes translate to cm? And since the standover sounds within my range, does that mean the Raleigh has a more relaxed geometry than what I'm used to?

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the sizing of these bikes before I waste my time and the seller's driving out to look at something that's too big for me.

I'd welcome any thoughts about the Competition. It's a lovely bike, and has that 1970s aesthetic that I love.
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 12:14 PM
  #2  
steelbikeguy
Senior Member
 
steelbikeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 3,868
Mentioned: 77 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1528 Post(s)
Liked 2,464 Times in 1,198 Posts
Raleigh measured frame size from the center of the BB to the top of the seat tube lug.
My '74 International has a 10 1/4" high BB, a 24 1/2" seat tube c-t, and the standover is 33 1/2" (with 700 x 25 tires).
I'm guessing that the Competition would be similar... but that's a wild guess. The Professionals were known, IIRC, for having high bottom brackets, so the Competition might inherit that tendency.

Steve in Peoria (just killing time until someone shows up who actually knows what they are talking about)
steelbikeguy is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:10 PM
  #3  
Pcampeau
Senior Member
 
Pcampeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 785

Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course. 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1960 Carlton Franco Suisse Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked 483 Times in 271 Posts
Steelbikeguy is correct. A 23 1/2 frame will be slightly larger than 59.5cm. A 24 1/2 frame is about 62.25 cm. Raleighs are measured from the center of the crank to the top of the seat lug so according to Raleigh, the seller does not have a 61cm frame. Im gonna guess they measured to the center of the top tube and what youll be looking at is a 24 1/2 frame.
Pcampeau is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:10 PM
  #4  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,690
Mentioned: 369 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3186 Post(s)
Liked 2,046 Times in 1,430 Posts
-----

frame sizes were offered in one inch increments on the half inch as measured centre to top

from the information provided suspect seller example will be the nominal 24 1/2" size


-----
juvela is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:23 PM
  #5  
bark_eater 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Eastern Shore, MD
Posts: 1,863

Bikes: Road ready: 1993 Koga Miyata City Liner Touring Hybrid, 1989 Centurion Sport DLX, "I Blame GP" Bridgestone CB-1. Projects: Yea, I got a problem....

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 644 Post(s)
Liked 433 Times in 287 Posts
I think thats a good deal, if its safe to ride. If I had the means and opportunity, I'd be looking at it.

Couple things from the photos.

The Brooks saddle is probably toast, so you'll need to sort that out.

The original high end Huret Jubile rear derailleur has been replaced with a lower end model. It might be perfectly functional, but these bikes have a Huret pattern drop out and other brands of derailleurs wont fit.

I've checked out a few of these frames and the craftmanship is all over the skilled or drunk spectrum. I have a competition frame in the attic with great paint. I'm pretty sure that's because everyone whos had it considered it unsafe to ride.. If your looking for a wallhanger let me know.....

The listed one looks like its been ridden, but maybe not as its built up now, but the sum of the parts value is more than the asking price. It looks like the flipper is selling off a bunch of bikes at fair prices, so theres less chance of a "catch" to the deal.. Good Luck
bark_eater is online now  
Old 12-07-22, 01:24 PM
  #6  
nlerner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 16,386
Mentioned: 441 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3372 Post(s)
Liked 5,075 Times in 2,104 Posts
That standover measurement doesn't jibe with the seat tube measurement. I'm guessing one is incorrect.
nlerner is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:31 PM
  #7  
cyclophilia 
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Desert Southwest
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 54 Times in 36 Posts
This has a hodge podge of nice components, well worth the asking price.

If the frame is too large you might list it on the "frame doesn't fit pass it around" forum and ask for a smaller size.

Note that there is a dent in the top tube.

cyclophilia is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:46 PM
  #8  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclophilia View Post
This has a hodge podge of nice components, well worth the asking price.

If the frame is too large you might list it on the "frame doesn't fit pass it around" forum and ask for a smaller size.

Note that there is a dent in the top tube.


I see the dent, it looks fairly minor to me. Am I wrong?
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:47 PM
  #9  
VRJAKE 
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 140

Bikes: Bakers dozen is the limit!

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked 246 Times in 79 Posts
Not knowing how the seller measured, ya can't know without looking - just sayin. The pic, to me, looks like it's 58 or 59cm center to center.

Note this one has Nervex Pro lugs versus the Capella style. Interesting as I just picked up such a frame with the Nervex lugs and according to the Sheldon Brown website, the serial number dates it to 1966! But all other evidence, HS, BB, Crankset point to '73 plus minus date of the bike. A detractor for these frames is the Huret rear dropouts, not designed for Campagnolo or other common derailleurs due to placement of the stop being much farther forward - the Huret derailleur on it looks to be right for the dropout. Otherwise, these are wonderfully versatile and fine riding frames. Lots of tire clearance, fender mounts, should take a 27.2 seat post and English threading. This gives a lot of options for a build. Yet it looks pretty cool as shown.
VRJAKE is offline  
Likes For VRJAKE:
Old 12-07-22, 01:49 PM
  #10  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
That standover measurement doesn't jibe with the seat tube measurement. I'm guessing one is incorrect.
That's what I wondered. In the photo it just doesn't look like a 61cm frame to me.
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 01:51 PM
  #11  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by VRJAKE View Post
Not knowing how the seller measured, ya can't know without looking - just sayin. The pic, to me, looks like it's 58 or 59cm center to center.

Note this one has Nervex Pro lugs versus the Capella style. Interesting as I just picked up such a frame with the Nervex lugs and according to the Sheldon Brown website, the serial number dates it to 1966! But all other evidence, HS, BB, Crankset point to '73 plus minus date of the bike. A detractor for these frames is the Huret rear dropouts, not designed for Campagnolo or other common derailleurs due to placement of the stop being much farther forward - the Huret derailleur on it looks to be right for the dropout. Otherwise, these are wonderfully versatile and fine riding frames. Lots of tire clearance, fender mounts, should take a 27.2 seat post and English threading. This gives a lot of options for a build. Yet it looks pretty cool as shown.
That's what I'm thinking.The seller's off-the-cuff response was 61cm, but when I asked him to measure the standover - because 61 just didn't look right - it was a respectable 321/2", which puts it in line with a 59cm bike. So I'm hoping the later measure was more accurate.
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 02:12 PM
  #12  
cyclophilia 
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Desert Southwest
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 54 Times in 36 Posts
The dent appears to be minor - I would only be concerned if you were considering resale value. You might mention it to the seller as part of your negotiation.

cyclophilia is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 04:25 PM
  #13  
Charles Wahl
Disraeli Gears
 
Charles Wahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,118
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 480 Post(s)
Liked 309 Times in 186 Posts
I have a 62 cm (24-1/2") 1972 Competition frame, and it has a longer head tube than the one being pictured. It also has the Nervex Pro lugs. My guess is that this one is a 1972 (serial number beginning "G") 23-1/2" frame. OTOH, if those derailleurs and crank are original, then maybe it's later than '72. I would not be concerned about that top tube dent.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 12-07-22 at 04:29 PM.
Charles Wahl is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 05:41 PM
  #14  
heidelbergensis 
Junior Member
 
heidelbergensis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: NYC
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 26 Posts
Not sure if this is helpful, but I have a 24.5-inch (61cm c-c) '73 Comp, and this is what it looks like fitted with wheels:


I would concur that this is the smaller 23.5-inch size.
heidelbergensis is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 05:51 PM
  #15  
noobinsf 
Senior Member
 
noobinsf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 3,286

Bikes: '82 Univega Competizione, '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '83 Mercian KOM Touring, '85 Univega Alpina Uno, '76 Eisentraut Limited

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1085 Post(s)
Liked 1,191 Times in 693 Posts
Originally Posted by heidelbergensis View Post
Not sure if this is helpful, but I have a 24.5-inch (61cm c-c) '73 Comp, and this is what it looks like fitted with wheels:


I would concur that this is the smaller 23.5-inch size.
Not to stray off topic, but what size tires and fenders are those?
noobinsf is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 08:39 PM
  #16  
heidelbergensis 
Junior Member
 
heidelbergensis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2022
Location: NYC
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by noobinsf View Post
Not to stray off topic, but what size tires and fenders are those?
Pictured are 700c wheels with 32c Gravelkings and I believe the 45mm hammered V-O fenders. These frames just absolutely eat tires! Esp the models fitted with the Davis sloping fork crown:

heidelbergensis is offline  
Likes For heidelbergensis:
Old 12-07-22, 09:08 PM
  #17  
USAZorro
Seor Member
 
USAZorro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hardy, VA
Posts: 17,450

Bikes: Mostly English - predominantly Raleighs

Mentioned: 64 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1276 Post(s)
Liked 707 Times in 435 Posts
My 1971 Competition (and '73 Grand Sports, and '74 International and '73 RRA) has a 21-1/2" frame and has 31-1/2" of standover with 700c wheels and 25-ish mm tires.

A 22-1/2" frame would have 32-1/2" standover.

The pictured frame looks to me like a 23-1/2" frame - which I expect would have roughly 33-1/2" of standover. The seller either isn't careful with measuring, or with typing.
__________________
In search of what to search for.
USAZorro is offline  
Old 12-07-22, 09:41 PM
  #18  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
My 1971 Competition (and '73 Grand Sports, and '74 International and '73 RRA) has a 21-1/2" frame and has 31-1/2" of standover with 700c wheels and 25-ish mm tires.

A 22-1/2" frame would have 32-1/2" standover.

The pictured frame looks to me like a 23-1/2" frame - which I expect would have roughly 33-1/2" of standover. The seller either isn't careful with measuring, or with typing.
Hmm. Guess I'll find out Friday
Roypercy is offline  
Likes For Roypercy:
Old 12-08-22, 10:23 AM
  #19  
gugie 
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,060

Bikes: It's complicated.

Mentioned: 1229 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4336 Post(s)
Liked 4,447 Times in 1,883 Posts
Originally Posted by Roypercy View Post
That's what I'm thinking.The seller's off-the-cuff response was 61cm, but when I asked him to measure the standover - because 61 just didn't look right - it was a respectable 321/2", which puts it in line with a 59cm bike. So I'm hoping the later measure was more accurate.
Definitely a 23-1/2. I have a frame hanging in the Atelier in that size, and @Andy_K has one in that size. CTC would be just about 57cm.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 12-08-22, 03:13 PM
  #20  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Definitely a 23-1/2. I have a frame hanging in the Atelier in that size, and @Andy_K has one in that size. CTC would be just about 57cm.

Thanks! Should be very much in line with my '87 Super Sport which I've been riding comfortably for 5 years.
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-09-22, 02:57 PM
  #21  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Well, I got the bike! It's in very good shape, much better-looking than the seller's pics (I'll post some later, I have questions about some of the components). The size is indeed 23 1/2", roughly the same as my 60cm Super Sport - maybe just a hair taller, but I can make it work. I'm blown away by how light the frame is.

Thanks for the help, everybody!
Roypercy is offline  
Old 12-10-22, 06:44 AM
  #22  
cyclophilia 
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Desert Southwest
Posts: 165
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 54 Times in 36 Posts
Congratulations!

So happy for you.

I was hoping that this Raleigh would follow you home.
cyclophilia is offline  
Likes For cyclophilia:
Old 01-14-23, 02:05 PM
  #23  
Roypercy
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
Roypercy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 476

Bikes: 1987 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 73 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by VRJAKE View Post
Not knowing how the seller measured, ya can't know without looking - just sayin. The pic, to me, looks like it's 58 or 59cm center to center.

Note this one has Nervex Pro lugs versus the Capella style. Interesting as I just picked up such a frame with the Nervex lugs and according to the Sheldon Brown website, the serial number dates it to 1966! But all other evidence, HS, BB, Crankset point to '73 plus minus date of the bike. A detractor for these frames is the Huret rear dropouts, not designed for Campagnolo or other common derailleurs due to placement of the stop being much farther forward - the Huret derailleur on it looks to be right for the dropout. Otherwise, these are wonderfully versatile and fine riding frames. Lots of tire clearance, fender mounts, should take a 27.2 seat post and English threading. This gives a lot of options for a build. Yet it looks pretty cool as shown.
Reviving this thread - I finally got around to picking up a metric tape measure and Jake you were spot-on, the frame is 59cm c-to-c. The standover is roughly 32 1/2". I'm probably most comfortable with about a 57cm frame, (32" inseam) but I took the bike out for a little spin in the park and it feels like it fits me just fine. With the standover there isn't much room "for the holy spirit", as the nuns used to say, but I have long arms and a long torso and am generally comfortable on larger frames anyway.

I won't be able to really ride this bike until I replace the tires (there's a lump in the rear tire and they both look pretty dry) but already I can tell this bike is incredibly smooth. The frame feels straight as an arrow; although the Huret Jubilee derailleur was replaced with a cosmetically-challenged Huret Challenger, it shifts smoothly and quickly.

Here's a question for the Competition afficionados: what am I missing by not having a Huret Jubilee? They tend to be pretty spendy on the 'Bay. With the wheel and crankset replacements that already happened with this bike I'm thinking I don't need to be obsessive about being period correct. If I wanted to upgrade the Challenger at some point, are there any other derailleurs that would fit those dropouts i should be on the lookout for?

Ditto with the brakes. The original Weinmann center pulls work just fine - really well, actually - but I was eyeing some nice shiny Spidel sidepulls to match the Spidel cranks. Anybody replaced the brakes on their Competition of this era?
Roypercy is offline  
Old 01-14-23, 05:34 PM
  #24  
daka
Full Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 410

Bikes: Raleigh Super Course x2, Raleigh International, Raleigh Gran Sport

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 214 Post(s)
Liked 247 Times in 152 Posts
Realistically, with a Jubilee you will be limited to a 24t (I've gotten a 26t to kinda work) rear cog using the bike's dropout mount. Using a Challenger or the lighter Success (same design but has titanium knuckles) that derailleur can be configured to accommodate a 28t sprocket. Aesthetically, I don't think the Challenger/Success can compare with the Jubilee - especially after the little plastic cover plate for the mounting screw has been lost or broken.
daka is offline  
Old 01-14-23, 05:51 PM
  #25  
Murray Missile 
Senior Member
 
Murray Missile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: 700 Ft. above sea level.
Posts: 3,047

Bikes: Not as many as there were awhile ago.

Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 548 Post(s)
Liked 997 Times in 492 Posts
Originally Posted by VRJAKE View Post
........ should take a 27.2 seat post........
My '72 Competiton takes a 27.2 but my '73 takes a 27.0.
__________________
".....distasteful and easily triggered."
Murray Missile is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.