3alarmer 

...I just now realized that if you don't need or want the stupid indexing stops, you could probably save 300 bucks and set this up with a simple friction shifter from olden days. And for the front, just go with a rod actuated push one. Saving money and reliving technology are two of my hobbies..

fender1

Hang around here for a bit longer and you will see they both (Heine & Petersen) are both regularly vilified in this forum pretty regularly.

squirtdad

would need to levers on for up and one for down (desmodronic)

Germany_chris

I am people and I like and agree with both men.

The internet dunks on Jan no matter what he does, he announces his colab with Open and people complain that he's supposed to be old school and steel, he announces old school and people complain because it's not modern.

Grant builds bikes for his "unracer" niche and people complain about just about everything from the stem to friction shifting.

IMHO what people are really complaining about in both cases is they charge modern racing bike prices for stuff that's not modern racing bike stuff.

There was a great quote on redddit that went something like "this derailleur is for people that buy Paul components un-ironically". I'm not all that interested in bang for the buck but I'm greatly interested in things that make me want to look at my bike or look back at my bike as I'm walking away this fits that bill and will shift modern cassettes.

JohnDThompson 

"Desmodromic" actuation:
https://www.renehersecycles.com/my-p...e-derailleurs/

USAZorro

Yes. Exactly. I could have explained it so much more clearly.

USAZorro

Jan does seem to have triggered some people who appear relentless in attempting to undermine his every effort. I honestly don't get it - quite possibly because I've had very minimal contact with him, or those who seem unwilling to allow time to heal whatever might have initially caused the bitterness. Yes, he does self-promote relentlessly, but in the business he's in, that's about the only way to keep going. I'll be forever grateful for his treatises in BQ about tire rolling resistance, and for having good enough balance to not fall over and crash into him when the sole of my clipped-in shoe separated while coming to a mid-ride stop on a ride at Cirque about a dozen years ago (it was a really, really close call).

Like many things, it's a bit out of my cheapskate price range, but it is pretty cool - and seems a worthy homage and just the ornament to put on a high-end, pseudo-retro throwback bicycle.

gugie 

I've run across two bikes with chainstay mounted derailleurs. Here's my Peugeot PH-60:


Simplex derailleur with single cable and spring return

This is a different design than Nivex, but all of that chain wraparound makes it a pain in the rear to take the rear wheel on and off.

And if you think that was different, here's a SunTour S-1 derailleur bit brazed onto a chainstay for @rhm


Lookit that DIY jig I made! It's actually pretty accurate, I used my flat table to check parallelism and met the spec'ed offset from the dropout.

SunTour realized that wheel removal would be an issue, so they included this little piece to hang your chain on when removing the rear wheel:


Bolts onto the old derailleur hanger. Yes, I modified the position this, but that's another story.

Price is high due to very low volume. If Jan could sell 10's of thousands of these it would be a quarter of less of the cost.

I think the biggest issue is needing to modify a frame to bolt it on. If you dig a bit deeper you'll find a $139 jig to accurately place the attachment bit. I couldn't find any spec's for the location to make my own, so one is stuck with having to purchase the jig.

Just noticed that the pullies appear to be 3D printed - if you look closely you'll see what looks like "sedimentary" layers, typical for the layer by layer 3D printing process.

If Jan had enough "mad money" for this passion project, it could be worth it as a marketing ploy. It's his business. And right now his initial run appears to be sold out. I have no idea how many he sold, or what his break even point is.

SurferRosa

He mentions that in his article with the idea of a sort of Campy Portacatena. I'd go for that, because I very rarely use that biggest gear (but I use a 52t ring).

What about a clamp-on fitting? Not robust enough?

Bad Lag

In what way is this thing superior to what we have?

It looks to be a real "Rube Goldberg" mechanism with several parts that look to be seriously vulnerable to damage (weak items & totally exposed).

You have to modify your frame to use it.

It requires two cables, not one.

The idea that the shifting is "more sensitive" is balderdash (to me).

Don't get me wrong, I think it is a cool toy.

I am in way convinced to switch nor that it is "better". Please explain.

gugie 

Probably too flexible, and prone to slipping. For someone spending a grand for a rear derailleur and shift lever I would think brazing on a chainstay bit wouldn't phase them a bit.

The Golden Boy 

As much as obscenely expensive, oddball pieces are totally my bag, that sort of thing is not my bag, baby.

SurferRosa

He says the operation of an externally geared touring bike is actually more durable/reliable due to the rd's placement under the stay in case of fall.

That part makes sense to me, because there's no cage spring pulling on the shifter.

3alarmer 

...great minds think alike.

SurferRosa

One thing I don't understand is the "self-trimming" fd, where chainrub moves the front derailleur back to a centered position. Having no experience with this old-timey device myself, is this true? And how long does it take? I can't stand to hear the chain rubbing on the front derailleur for any amount of time.

PhilFo 

Take apart a Suntour Symmetric shifter and you'll see how it's done. I have a set on my 1981 Miyata and I have a NOS shifter waiting in case I wear the other one out or want a new project.

repechage

Quite the gestation period.
when I see it I think Paul Components family styling.
there was probably a serious amount of time to develop. I am not the market, so the price is of no concern.

and I was going to look last weekend at a SchwinnHybrid with A Suntour S-1 - it also requires a special mount scheme. The cheap cousin.

tcs

Dahon Neos chainstay-mounted 'shadow' derailleur:



"Art thou officer? Or art thou base, common and popular?" - Henry V, Act 4, Scene 1

SurferRosa

I've done that several times. That's a wholly different technology that uses a cam to move the left shifter boss down (or up in the case of a reverse normal fd) as right shifter is moved into a lower gear. My question concerned Jan's note that chainrub self-centers the fd.

scarlson 

Yeah, that there is a Nivex dropout, as I know it, although you are right that it's a Le Cyclo derailleur. I just wanted to illustrate a point, which is that chainstay-mounted derailleurs work best with a chainrest dropout. Doesn't matter if it's a Nivex or a Le Cyclo, you can't pivot the derailleur back to get the chain around the axle poking out. They are a pain if you want to remove the wheel, and I believe it's short-sighted not to try and develop a chainrest. As I said, I even thought about doing it for my own Trek even though it shifts with a Shimano XTR M952!

bikingshearer 

I hear that Jan Henne and Grant Petersen will both competing and going for he gold in Windmill-Tilting at the 2024 Summer Olympics.

And to anticipate: No, this is not meant as a slam at either of them. Just some light-hearted banter poking very gentle fun at two gents who like to live on the road less traveled. I'm glad they both are in the bicycle industry. The fact that I have zero intention of buying a Hunqapilar or a Neo-Nivex does not change that. They have both had a positive impact on our little corner of the world. I hope Mr. Henne sells a bunch of these things, just as I hope Mr. Petersen sells a bunch of his "Hillibikes" even though I will not be one of the buyers.

steelbikeguy

okay, I appreciate the clarification!

I was poking through my BQ archives, and found an article in BQ14 titled "Riding with Classic Derailleurs - Pt 1 - Cyclotouring rear derailleurs".
It includes an illustration and a photo showing the chain rest....




It's not clear to me whether the chainrest takes up some space, similar to the porta catena, and thus requires a narrower freewheel. If so, I could see where that could be an issue if someone was planning to use standard spaced freewheels or cassettes. Although, given the degree of specialization of the derailleur, finding a suitable freewheel wouldn't be that much more effort or expense.

That's definitely an interesting detail, and I'll have to go back and read that article all the way through now.

Steve in Peoria

scarlson 

I have a bike with a chainrest dropout like the one in the pictures that both you and I posted. It protrudes inboard a bit underneath the "rail" on which the chain rests. Thus the axle has to protrude a bit outboard of the freewheel, but not too much. A couple mm maybe?

You could design the dropout such that you wouldn't need a longer axle than normal. Just make the dropout protrude inboard a bit more, beneath the chainrest rail. You spread the frame for standard road or mountain spacing between this protruded part of the dropout and the left dropout, and thus standard freewheel or cassette width. The extra width would be in the frame, not the wheel. Yes, the right stays are going to go farther outboard than the left, but there's no law against this. The bike is sort of spaced asymmetrically to accommodate the "extra gear" that the dropout provides, but it's already got custom braze-on for the derailleur, so the dropout and spacing isn't much of a step beyond that. I've spaced bikes' rear triangles asymmetrically before, just to reduce wheel dish. Never had a problem.

You could envision a version of the chainrest that would clamp in a standard dropout. It would be just like the Surly "monkey nuts" dropout spacers, but with a chainrest machined into the inside portion. Would clamp into the dropout with a screw. Easy. There could be different sizes of spacer for different smallest cogs. You could also have a version of dropout that worked like this, in a sort of modular fashion. Again, I think it would play well with through-axles, since the original Nivex system had a sort of half through axle on the right side.

RiddleOfSteel

Well, given how nuts the last several years have been, I'm here for the out-there stuff. This rear derailleur is, to my product designer eye, decidedly prettier than a Paul derailleur (or anything they make), even as it shares an aesthetic ethos with Paul Components (due to method of manufacture). That being said, it does not hide its CNC origins either in form or finish, and I wish it did on one or both accounts (both preferably). It and the shifter give off a strong prototype aesthetic, something that polishing or anodization would readily ease, IMO. Or simply perhaps some well-placed radii. Some of the chosen hardware also hurts the 'presentation,' which is one part "could have used something else" and one part "Rene Herse is not Shimano et al in both component history development and expenditure."

I do like the contrasting brass/copper pieces--those help bring visual interest in critical areas. Additionally, this looks like it could be/was assembled by humans and not a million robots employing special jigs. Repairable, rebuildable, modifiable--qualities that I think many of us appreciate.

Jan crafts a riding experience in parts and in whole with his products or those from others that he enjoys. And it looks like he gave a lot of thought to the "What if a particular kind of shifting that I like could be made even better?" I think we all do some 'crafting' in one or many ways. You know mine: beauty, composition, ride/comfort, out-of-saddle characteristics. I understand the day dreaming and the splitting hairs as I do learn and benefit from the endeavor, princess-and-the-pea rider that I am. He decided he had the money and wanted to spend the money and time to do this. And it needs marketing, so he's marketing. Good for him. The derailleur and shifter aren't for me, and it's not because of price (though the price is considerable). I think chainstay mounted derailleurs look cool, but like others have said, tire installment and removal is something to adjust to.

SkinGriz

This is my feelings also. I think it’s beautifully machined. I think it’s interesting how it mounts to the CS.

I have other things I want my money to go to, but if I saw this outside a coffee shop or whatever, I’d definitely ask the owner to demonstrate, take pictures, be happy for them, etc.