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$1,000 derailleur system with 1930's technology

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$1,000 derailleur system with 1930's technology

Old 12-13-22, 11:47 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Dahon Neos chainstay-mounted 'shadow' derailleur:



"Art thou officer? Or art thou base, common and popular?" - Henry V, Act 4, Scene 1
The only quote I know from the play is “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels.” but realized how as Solomon said there’s nothing new under the sun. And any younger person that asks me (or their parents) I tell them not to enlist. Don’t be somebody else’s useful idiot.
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Old 12-14-22, 07:05 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Jan crafts a riding experience in parts and in whole with his products or those from others that he enjoys. And it looks like he gave a lot of thought to the "What if a particular kind of shifting that I like could be made even better?" I think we all do some 'crafting' in one or many ways. You know mine: beauty, composition, ride/comfort, out-of-saddle characteristics. I understand the day dreaming and the splitting hairs as I do learn and benefit from the endeavor, princess-and-the-pea rider that I am. He decided he had the money and wanted to spend the money and time to do this. And it needs marketing, so he's marketing. Good for him. The derailleur and shifter aren't for me, and it's not because of price (though the price is considerable). I think chainstay mounted derailleurs look cool, but like others have said, tire installment and removal is something to adjust to.
Ya know, if he wants to make a mishmash of things to see what would make things better/more enjoyable, I could get behind this if he would pair it up with a new version (friction even, if he wished) of SunTour Command shifters. As a tall guy, I just prefer shifting without taking my hands off the bars. I think I might be the only one who likes Kelly Take Offs (for an upcoming commuter/all roads/touring bike build, I'm debating the simplicity of the Kelly Take Offs vs. Campagnolo Ergos with a Shiftmate for the wider range of Shimano gearing - unless I can happen across some Command shifters modified for 3x10 Shimano), though I get the limitation of not being able to shift from the drops.
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Old 12-14-22, 08:09 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Dahon Neos chainstay-mounted 'shadow' derailleur:
For the record, the Dahons that I've serviced with this RD never perform that well. Not because of the derailer itself, but due to the increase in chain angle from cog to front chainring due to the short wheelbase. This always causes unnecessary chatter on either extreme of the cassette, as the chain tends to prematurely pop off the ramped cog teeth in first. Any misalignment in low can also result in the chain pins ever so slightly catching the second-to-smallest cog. Doesn't affect operation, but does create unnecessary noise.

Suffice it to say that a neighbor that bought one spent a month trying to wrap their head around why their new bike's drivetrain clattered so often.

No amount of adjustment can overcome it either. Not saying it's the RD's fault at all, but the reverse parallelogram pivot - in this case - does little other than to give the RD greater ground clearance.

I'd love to see someone adapt one of these to a frame with a proper wheelbase though, would be an interesting study.

-Kurt
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Old 12-14-22, 08:22 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by RiddleOfSteel View Post
Well, given how nuts the last several years have been, I'm here for the out-there stuff. This rear derailleur is, to my product designer eye, decidedly prettier than a Paul derailleur (or anything they make), even as it shares an aesthetic ethos with Paul Components (due to method of manufacture). That being said, it does not hide its CNC origins either in form or finish, and I wish it did on one or both accounts (both preferably). It and the shifter give off a strong prototype aesthetic, something that polishing or anodization would readily ease, IMO. Or simply perhaps some well-placed radii. Some of the chosen hardware also hurts the 'presentation,' which is one part "could have used something else" and one part "Rene Herse is not Shimano et al in both component history development and expenditure."

I do like the contrasting brass/copper pieces--those help bring visual interest in critical areas. Additionally, this looks like it could be/was assembled by humans and not a million robots employing special jigs. Repairable, rebuildable, modifiable--qualities that I think many of us appreciate.

Jan crafts a riding experience in parts and in whole with his products or those from others that he enjoys. And it looks like he gave a lot of thought to the "What if a particular kind of shifting that I like could be made even better?" I think we all do some 'crafting' in one or many ways. You know mine: beauty, composition, ride/comfort, out-of-saddle characteristics. I understand the day dreaming and the splitting hairs as I do learn and benefit from the endeavor, princess-and-the-pea rider that I am. He decided he had the money and wanted to spend the money and time to do this. And it needs marketing, so he's marketing. Good for him. The derailleur and shifter aren't for me, and it's not because of price (though the price is considerable). I think chainstay mounted derailleurs look cool, but like others have said, tire installment and removal is something to adjust to.
When I first saw the subject derailer the first word that came to mind was "brutalist". There's form and function and the importance of each can be debated. This offering seems to be on the side of function, with attention paid not to appearance so much as performance. Nothing wrong with that and it actually appeals to many. Still others will want the rough edges smoothed out so the form and function becomes better balanced in their eyes.

I've enjoyed reading through many of the comments. Personally I think it is interesting and I hope it is a successful and rewarding venture. And maybe it will spawn more projects of its type. The advances in CNC manufacturing and 3D printing are making the unheard of actually possible now.
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Old 12-14-22, 09:20 AM
  #130  
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Another picture of a clamp on derailleur https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ci2gI...d=MDJmNzVkMjY=

seems to work fine….
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Old 12-14-22, 10:42 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
...the reverse parallelogram pivot - in this case - does little other than to give the RD greater ground clearance.
As Mr. Heine sez, "The under-chainstay location tucks the derailleur out of the way, so it’s protected from damage. It doesn’t touch the ground at all when you lay down the bike (or when it falls over)...". I'll add that it doesn't stick out and increase the Dahon/Tern's folded silhouette.
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Old 12-14-22, 10:51 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
I've run across two bikes with chainstay mounted derailleurs. Here's my Peugeot PH-60:


Simplex derailleur with single cable and spring return

This is a different design than Nivex, but all of that chain wraparound makes it a pain in the rear to take the rear wheel on and off.

And if you think that was different, here's a SunTour S-1 derailleur bit brazed onto a chainstay for @rhm


Lookit that DIY jig I made! It's actually pretty accurate, I used my flat table to check parallelism and met the spec'ed offset from the dropout.

SunTour realized that wheel removal would be an issue, so they included this little piece to hang your chain on when removing the rear wheel:


Bolts onto the old derailleur hanger. Yes, I modified the position this, but that's another story.

Price is high due to very low volume. If Jan could sell 10's of thousands of these it would be a quarter of less of the cost.

I think the biggest issue is needing to modify a frame to bolt it on. If you dig a bit deeper you'll find a $139 jig to accurately place the attachment bit. I couldn't find any spec's for the location to make my own, so one is stuck with having to purchase the jig.

Just noticed that the pullies appear to be 3D printed - if you look closely you'll see what looks like "sedimentary" layers, typical for the layer by layer 3D printing process.

If Jan had enough "mad money" for this passion project, it could be worth it as a marketing ploy. It's his business. And right now his initial run appears to be sold out. I have no idea how many he sold, or what his break even point is.
Very noteworthy in the above post is the creation of a fixture to position the chainstay mount point. Jan's effort goes a bit farther and really requires a special dropout... visions of something equal but different to the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa dropout alignment tools.
once one has the parts in hand, there will be work to get them into position
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Old 12-14-22, 11:13 AM
  #133  
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An older German cyclist reminisced about sport cycling in the 1930s. The club all used Fichtel&Sachs hub gears except one sporting blade who had an Italian derailleur set. He said they good-naturedly refused to shake hands with him. "Nein! Schwarze Finger!"

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Old 12-14-22, 11:55 AM
  #134  
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Excerpt from a conversation on the same topic from google groups i-bob list:

Jan Heine


Bill,


You owe somebody $ 5. It's not a typo... For now, we don't plan to offer 9-speed.The difference is indeed just the indexing ring inside the shift lever. Why not offer every possible version? The issue is the R&D. The specs of cassettes aren’t published, so we have to measure half a dozen to figure out the _real_ tolerances. Then we have to design the indexing ring. Then test it (which means setting up a bike with those parts). In fact, the indexing is subtly different for Campy and Shimano. That's why we recommend a Shimano cassette for the current 11-speed. Campy and SRAM will work in a pinch, but it's not ideal.

As an aside, the indexing ring isn’t notched in our case, as that would give you too much indexing. So we use a different way to create the indexing. In theory, you could rebuild an 11-speed shift lever into an 8-speed, or even friction. In practice, disassembly is not trivial—there are many tiny parts inside. Also, all levers use matched parts—meaning we measure all parts from a batch and combine those that work best together to get the tightest tolerances and best shift feel. It's sort of like blueprinting engines for racecars.

Agree with the other comments here. This project was never going to make commercial sense. It was a challenge for our engineering team. It's a product I want to ride. It's something to share with a few others—the first (admittedly very small) production run already sold out—but it's not going to set the world on fire. If it gets other component makers reassess some of their assumptions, all the better. (Who would have thought that wide tires would catch on in such a big way?)

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Seattle, WA, USA


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Old 12-14-22, 12:15 PM
  #135  
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^
Nothing really wrong with that other than the bet smugness. It costs a lot to tool up for this stuff, arguably even more than it costs to CNC.

Speaking of which, take a look at the process of getting plastic castings made for the Linus Tech Tips screwdriver ( 8:03 - 9:24 ), arguably the same process that would be required for just one of the Rene Herse pulley wheels if Jan had gone with injection molding:


That explains the 3D-printed approach. Not ideal, but it works well enough. The smoother forms of resin plastic (SLS) printing would have been too brittle.

-Kurt
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Old 12-14-22, 01:58 PM
  #136  
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Also note that Jan sold a limited edition 80th Anniversary Rene Herse complete bike for around $14,000. Website shows they sold out. These high end products are a niche market with probably little to no profit, but if you consider it as advertising for his brand, creating a buzz, it's probably worth it.

This thread is up 136 posts now, so it's definitely created some buzz here.
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Old 12-14-22, 02:18 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
This thread is up 136 posts now, so it's definitely created some buzz here.
Old Hollywood agent axiom: "There is no bad publicity."
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Old 12-14-22, 02:21 PM
  #138  
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I dunno, does Mr. Heine/René Herse Cycles sell something like pine tar soap or hemp twine, so we could throw him a bone just for the entertainment?

(Hmm. Checks website). Oooo! How about a Nivex® brand derailleur cable?

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Old 12-14-22, 02:32 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I think calling it "The Nivex" kind of blows the whistle on this history.
What's wrong with that? A well respected bicycle company called its product "The Raleigh".
And I heard of a woman who called her husband "The Donald".
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Old 12-14-22, 03:01 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by fender1 View Post
Excerpt from a conversation on the same topic from google groups i-bob list:

Jan Heine


Bill,


You owe somebody $ 5. It's not a typo... For now, we don't plan to offer 9-speed.The difference is indeed just the indexing ring inside the shift lever. Why not offer every possible version? The issue is the R&D. The specs of cassettes aren’t published, so we have to measure half a dozen to figure out the _real_ tolerances. Then we have to design the indexing ring. Then test it (which means setting up a bike with those parts). In fact, the indexing is subtly different for Campy and Shimano. That's why we recommend a Shimano cassette for the current 11-speed. Campy and SRAM will work in a pinch, but it's not ideal.

As an aside, the indexing ring isn’t notched in our case, as that would give you too much indexing. So we use a different way to create the indexing. In theory, you could rebuild an 11-speed shift lever into an 8-speed, or even friction. In practice, disassembly is not trivial—there are many tiny parts inside. Also, all levers use matched parts—meaning we measure all parts from a batch and combine those that work best together to get the tightest tolerances and best shift feel. It's sort of like blueprinting engines for racecars.

Agree with the other comments here. This project was never going to make commercial sense. It was a challenge for our engineering team. It's a product I want to ride. It's something to share with a few others—the first (admittedly very small) production run already sold out—but it's not going to set the world on fire. If it gets other component makers reassess some of their assumptions, all the better. (Who would have thought that wide tires would catch on in such a big way?)

Jan Heine
Rene Herse Cycles
Seattle, WA, USA

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Old 12-14-22, 03:39 PM
  #141  
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This part of his writing resonates with me:

When I cook, using a great knife is more fun than a KitchenAid. When I ride my bike, I pull the lever and feel the chain mesh with the new cog as a result of my hand movement. It doesn’t make me faster, but it makes riding more fun.

Like driving a car with manual transmission. It’s about being involved in the operation of my bike. There’s a joy in feeling the gears engage, because I (not a computer) timed the shift perfectly

Modern derailleurs were designed for different criteria than what’s important to me. I like a ‘manual’ bike where it’s me and not a servo motor who’s moving the chain.

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Old 12-14-22, 08:25 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Dahon Neos chainstay-mounted 'shadow' derailleur:

Jan mentions these lower chain stay derailleurs as fitting the chain around three sides of the rear cluster. I wonder if that adds benefits, like durability. I would assume they skip less often under load, making them safer when you're climbing out of the saddle.
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Old 12-14-22, 09:25 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Jan mentions these lower chain stay derailleurs as fitting the chain around three sides of the rear cluster.
Greater purchase is why Dr. Moulton did it, as he used relatively small cogs for gearing with the small wheels.

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Old 12-14-22, 09:31 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
This part of his writing resonates with me:
Maybe just toe the pads in a bit.

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Old 12-14-22, 09:57 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by tcs View Post
Old Hollywood agent axiom: "There is no bad publicity."
Seeing as Grant Peterson has to do a GoFundMe to keep Rivendell afloat every now and then, I don't believe that's quite accurate.

-Kurt
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Old 12-14-22, 10:31 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Jan mentions these lower chain stay derailleurs as fitting the chain around three sides of the rear cluster. I wonder if that adds benefits, like durability. I would assume they skip less often under load, making them safer when you're climbing out of the saddle.
Sure, the more chain wrapped, the better.

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Old 12-15-22, 02:37 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by BoltBreaker View Post
Sure, the more chain wrapped, the better.
Mmm-hmm

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Old 12-15-22, 06:05 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Seeing as Grant Peterson has to do a GoFundMe to keep Rivendell afloat every now and then, I don't believe that's quite accurate.
He needs a better agent.
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Old 12-15-22, 08:59 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Germany_chris View Post
…I'm greatly interested in things that make me want to look at my bike or look back at my bike as I'm walking away...
Yes! I’m right there with you
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Old 12-15-22, 10:37 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by P!N20 View Post
Mmm-hmm

one step forward and two steps back

actually closer to two revs forward and one rev back
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