BFisher 

Steve,

I respect your insights, of course. I will say that anybody who makes a serious effort to produce a reliably functioning derailleur has to be pretty darn cool, Chuck Harris included. My own personal aesthetic nit picks can be taken for what they're worth.

I still think it would be interesting to see a fully realized version of this new Nivex, including more thoughtful hardware choices. Production costs are what they are, and I'm glad I'm not wrangling those sorts of things. There's a lot to like about much of the Herse stuff. I get why people splurge on them.

Brian (Not ashamed to admit that I like the Huret Allvit )

79pmooney

And - If you tool up to make that sweet, pleasing RD, the incentive to toss those parts and start over because you have a hunch that if "we shortened this 1 mm and tweaked that a shade, shifting ought to be a little better"; well that incentive is completely gone. Like I said many posts ago,I hope RH does not finalized this into a jewel until after the "slant parallelagram" moment has arrived. For the traditional RD, the SunTour invention that became the go to for just about everybody once the patent expired, Suppose SunTour had taken a pre-"slant p" RD and turned it into a NR-like jewel. We might all still be riding beautiful crappy derailleurs.

steelbikeguy

Yep, CNC is a great tool for the prototype phase! Same for 3D printing... which makes me wonder what could be done for a derailleur?? That would make it a bit easier to get curved surfaces or little details. It probably can't produce the smooth polished surfaces that you can get with die casting, though.

What do you mean "might"?
I thought that was the whole point of this hobby.
(I'm assuming that sarcasm was intended?)



Steve in Peoria

Lattz

Clever but original? Isn't it the method Cinelli also "borrowed" from the fashion industry? And pretty much everybody else?
The "main product" for big momo for the lucky few is just to raise and keep interest towards the brand to make way for the ants to buy millions of the cheap(er, but not necessary cheap or bad) products.
Imagine any of the brand's fashion line if the'd discontinue the main product... who would care about the T-shirt / perfume / mobile case, license for Lego set you name it...
On the other side only a really few brands could/would say no to the huge amount of money from the affordable products.

iab

I have been in new product development for the last 30+ years. Most of it is in medical devices, I have done a little consumer goods and on the side I design and fabricate furniture. While your question seems simple, it is most assertively not. It is entirely hit and miss for any company including the likes of Apple, Nike and BMW, let alone some poor schmuck in Seattle pedaling crap to the harshest and cheapest critics that I know of.

As a stand alone piece, I would disagree with you about the aesthetics of the derailleur. It is obvious to me that it is likely Mr. Heine employed an industrial designer who in my opinion created a pretty good updated design. If you will, like the updated versions of old-timey cars (Charger, Mustang, etc.). I would also opine that the CNC aesthetic was a willful choice to romance the production process in the design, a common tactic of industrial designers. While it may not fit your tastes, you cannot please 100% of the people. I would never own this nor Campagnolo Nuovo Record, but I prefer this. That isn't to say I would expect more from NR, I just find its gaudiness not to fit what I prefer.

Where I do agree with you and where Mr. Heine misses, is that this piece does not complement the Rene Herse crank. The brand language between them does not exist and is my biggest problem. But then I think, this is just some poor schmuck in Seattle and not a multi-billion dollar corporation who also misses with their brand language. Again, just speculating, that an automated CNC is the driver in this case. I can get a single stem (pretty complicated design), cut on a CNC for $125. I find that cheap. It is a single piece, not bulk, at a full retail price. Using this methods avoids the minimum of $250K needed in tooling costs to make something with this many parts of the derailleur. It is a way to hedge your investment in case sales are lower than forecast. That said, it is like the industrial designer did not even consider the crank in the design of the derailleur. I would hate to think that as it would be entirely unprofessional. But it certainly seems that way to my eye.

repechage

@iab -

you made me recall the "Snow White" design language that frogdesign did for Apple decades ago. Good, then gone. Perhaps tied to the tech of the Apple llc and the Stylewiter too strongly.

Jan did not include probably in a design brief the other products he has or is working on.
Also quite possible it was an engineering focused design, no Industrial Designer consulted.

No family styling considered.
Too bad.
Stamp Paul on it and it visually works

elcraft

I suspect that Mr. Heine neglected to show the R H crankset design to the contracted industrial designer. Design aesthetic, I would posit, is the reason C&V enthusiasts go for “Period Correct” or, at least, keeping components to the same country of origin. Others, less aesthetically oriented might prefer to go with performance criteria over aesthetic interests. Each approach has its merits. Thus the Frankenstein bike exists.
I have been a Jewelery designer for more than 35 years; creating a piece to augment ( think a custom wedding band to go with a one off custom engagement ring) or accentuate an existing or heirloom piece has been the focus of much of my work. Understanding both the design aesthetic and the manufacturing process used is key to a successful design that works on an aesthetic level.

daka

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the current RH cranksets legacy-parts based on the original French Herse design? Perhaps even from the original dies? JH claims that they are "Net-shaped forged for ultimate strength" so they are not CNC and the difference in appearance is easily seen both in the shape of the parts as well as the difference between the anodized and polished finishes. As you state, a different design language, not cohesive between components

iab

Yes, of course. But there is no reason why a new design can't incorporate the design language of a previous design. That is pretty much standard operating procedure in most industries. A 2023 Porsche 911 looks like a 911 like a 1973 911 looks like a 911. And the rest of Porsche's offerings look like it came from Porsche. You line up the cars and it looks like they are sisters/brothers/cousins/etc. Brand language. Whether it was in Mr. Heine's design brief or not, it should have been considered because the company is called Rene Herse Cycles.

Now, you can be deliberate in not using your brand's language. But as a whole, that strategy does not work as well as having a common look and feel for your brand.

cudak888 

Petition to mount one of these New Nivex derailers on something that does share its design language.

Like a Tesla Cybertruck.

-Kurt

79pmooney

All the analogies presented here, yours and ones above, are evolutions of products that are proven. This RD is new. There is no last year's model to refer to and tweak. The original many years ago might have nailed it Cyclone-like first try but no one alive knows if that was the case. I still say, let the engineers focus on the geometry (huge!), details, construction methods (both to prototype and put into production, then last, pretty up the end result to look like a proper Renee Hurst.

Those of us here who need both this RD and the RH look are free to buy this RD, take it apart, reverse engineer the offending parts into satisfying RH looks and send out those plans to be C&C'd. Assemble and ride on in style.

SoccerBallXan

"Why would anybody create a new derailleur, when there are already many out there that work very well? The answer is simple: Because we want a different derailleur."

"I want my derailleur to operate with consistency throughout the gear range, for up- and downshifts alike. I want the shifts to happen instantaneously, so that I can let up slightly on the pedals to reduce the chain tension. Then I want to get back on the power immediately, before the bike loses any perceptible speed. All this should happen intuitively. My bike should feel like an extension of my body, not something that requires thought for something as simple as a gear shift."

I thought the beginning of the article was a bit funny. The author writes like they only ride eTap!

The price is not my cup of tea, but I don't think that makes anyone a grouch. Nor did I read anything in the thread that warranted a defense for the $1,000 derailleur. Cyclists will buy it...

repechage

the current RH cranks are very different from the originals. They share a BCD and appearance from 2 meters away, are a complete rework and retooling. In plan view the cranks flare- better Q factor- Good.
there is a complete change about the interconnection around the chainring bolts.
the current is a vast simplification. Too bad, CNC machining could be employed to recreate the original appearance. Make a difference? nah, only aesthetics and lower cost to mfg.
originals-

repechage

where is that product?
kind of like Campagnolo Delta brakes at the beginning.

cudak888 

Vaporware.

-Kurt

iab

No. You can categorize new products into 3 categories, core, adjacent and game changer. Core is next year's 911. Adjacent is the Cayenne, sporty SUV, but still the same tech as a two-seat sports car. Game changer is either new to the world or new or new to the company. Think of the Porsche Design fashion company.

So the current Rene Herse crank is core, it is a next gen version of the original. At best, the Nivex is adjacent, it is just an RD. It is not a game changer to a company that makes bike parts.

Sure. That is a strategy. I would say reducing industrial design to "pretty up the end result" and depending on your engineering team has created many more market failures than a proper collaboration of the two.

ironwood

I wonder what the original Nivex derailleur cost.

tyrion

I must say I did spend $216 on a couple of Rene Herse tires and it seemed so excessive, but in hindsight I do not regret it. Having said that, I'm not going to buy a $1000 RD.

merziac

Sold out as of right now.

Germany_chris

We don't know how many were built in the initial run...

While I'm not well healed this isn't outside my means by any stretch, but then I only own three gas pipe bikes which free's up money for bling

cudak888 

But, but, but...they can't be sold out! There's not enough to go around for the griping!

/s

-Kurt

merziac

That's ok, griping is and arguably more fun this way.

squirtdad

the design thing is so interesting, even more so when you apply it to an entire bike build.

I am in the process of what will be super nice build in the end (don't want to call it ultimate or grail)

throughout the build and design process I am trying to envision my final look, with a mix of classic, modern and other features including flexibility and future needs (down to lug lining and cable color)

At one point I considered the rene herse cranksets, because of the ability to go super low in future

I decided against for a couple of reasons 1) I really don't love the rene herse crank (kinda like when I was looking at a VW awd station wagon,,,it met all the technical criteria, but I just did not love or even like the design) 2) overall it did not work with the other components (Shimano mechanical R8000)

consistent "design language" is real

i would love to have a modern 11/12 speed component group in silver/alloy, don't except that to happen so that will be for vintage builds only

Polaris OBark

My Di2 setup from 2014 still works just as flawlessly as the day I got it, despite daily on/off road thrashings.

Jan compares this to the shifting on electronic drivetrains, which by implication he also appreciates, fwiw.

SRAM 12 speed mechanical eagle derailleurs, on the other hand, ...

cudak888 

Very true, and it doesn't even necessarily mean using the same component group or manufacturer. Case in point:



With exception to the Record seatpost, Nuovo Gran Sport headset, and hubs, nothing on this entire build shares the same component manufacturer. Yet, it all just works.

I can see the David Nivex complementing a TA Pro 5 crankset and rings under the right circumstances, but even then, it'd probably need to be polished to complement it.

-Kurt