SwimmerMike 

I picked this up yesterday after seeing it posted locally. In looking through a lot of posts I couldn’t find any references to the braze ons being factory options.

the frame is in great shape (one very small ding in the seat tube, that I think I can pop-out from the inside). There is no sign of this ever having been built up.

Could this be a custom from the factory? Or do you think someone had the braze ons (top tube cable guides, cable guides above the BB, water bottle bosses) and then rechromed, lug lined, and decaled it

thoughts?





Mike

merziac

@SwimmerMike

That's fantastic, the TT guides are later as are the DT bosses and BB cable guides I think.

Could be Waterford done as well as they were done and as nice/original looking as it is with original style lug lining, decals and chrome.

Great score, well done.

gugie 

Might want to contact Richard Schwinn and give him the serial number. My understanding is that he has records of all the frames built at the Waterford shop.

The braze on bits I see are all available today from modern sources. I don't have enough knowledge to say they weren't available in 1973. I'd bet on it being a refurb only from a "SWAG statistical analysis."

Regardless, that's a beauty!

52telecaster

Great snag!

Pcampeau

It looks after market to me, but all the additional bits make it much more practical. I say after market because the lug lining isn’t done the way Schwinn did it. Schwinn lining outlines but never really touches the lug at all. I don’t think those are the exact correct Reynolds 531 decals for 1973 either, I wanna say the gold outline came a little later than that. I see no reason to suspect an original finish with so many additional braze ons. It’s quite beautiful though.

SwimmerMike 

Thank's @gugie. I will probably reach out to Richard Schwinn to get the history on the bike. Since the outcome won't change anything (I'm planning on keeping it, building it up, and riding it) it's low on my list to find out. But, at some point, I'll want to know.

SwimmerMike 

Thanks @merziac. My feeling is that it is a Waterford re-do that was never built up. If the cable guides on the top-tube were the same as the P-15 then I can see a case where someone was willing to custom order the other braze-ons. But to specifically order a different top tube cable guide seems pretty odd.

SwimmerMike 

I agree, the additions make it much more practical, these are all things I would add onto a bike that I wanted to use a lot that wasn't still original. Since there were modifications I was debating buying it, but it so clean looking that I responded to the add. I knew I needed to have it when I received a response to one of my questions that started with "unfortunately". The "unfortunately" was all I could see on my watch. A lot of times when I inquire on a part/bike when I get a "it's sold" I don't even think about it. This time I was "damn, I wanted that". When I found out the unfortunately didn't end with "I already sold it" I stopped asking questions and started driving.

cudak888 

I'm 99.9% sure that's a post-1971 P13-9, which wouldn't have come with lug lining from factory - what's more, the original Paramount lining was offset from the lug, not directly on it.

My money is on modern refresh. Tastefully done. Possibly not a chromed frame originally.

-Kurt

SwimmerMike 

Thanks Kurt. I'll be pulling the forks off later, I'll check for any overspray that was left behind. With all the feedback I'm leaning more to sending a request in to Waterford to get the history. The more I look at at the more I scratch my head....

Why is there a NOS Campy headset on it (with no grease, just finger tight to hold it together)?

Why did some go to the effort to have the braze ons added, rechrome, lug-line, and decal it, then not build it up?

I know it came from a collector who passed away a few years ago. The guy I bought it from a few years ago had bought a bunch of bikes/parts from a woman whose husband passed away. She just called him back up to say she found some frames under the bed. This was one of the three he had.

Mike

dmark 

Here's an example of a 68 Paramount chrome lug lining:
https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/...560843743.html

cudak888 

Given that the PO went through this much effort to do it nicely, I'd wager that it was also stripped of every last bit of paint too. But never a bad idea to drop the fork.

It looks original, but it also looks a bit thicker than usual. It is from the lug-lined era though. Downtube decals aren't original.

-Kurt

SwimmerMike 

@dmark, that is a beautiful example. Thanks for sharing the link. I was debating how much red was too much, the owner of the '68 went with even more than I was thinking.

curbtender

Was that the guy who had the Somec also?

SwimmerMike 

yes, same guy. The Somec was very nice.

SwimmerMike 

Pulled the fork. There was some green paint on the steerer tube

repechage

Those top tube cable guides did not exist at the time the frame was made, look like Silva brand bits.
Fabulous but not original.

I hope not chrome originally

Sierra

The seat tube panel decal looks "taller" than the originals.

pastorbobnlnh 

All the extra braze-ons look very similar if not the same as the ones on my '83 Waterford Paramount.

curbtender

He give you any idea what he was asking for it?

SwimmerMike 

thanks for the input @PastorBobninh. I was thinking this was a Waterford modification. One more data point that is telling me to pay Waterford for the history.

I did some work on the bike today. It definitely has not been built up since the modifications that were done.

The first step will be to move the components from my ‘69 paramount over to this one. Then I can ride it and decide what the right build is.

repechage

As I recall, Waterford would not renew chrome plating, neither would Schwinn by report of a frame warranty repair of a fully chromed bike, they would paint it though to finish off the repair.

by the time that chromed frame presented a crack, Schwinn was no longer offering Chrome as a finish option.

merziac

Looks like Brewster green, not a standard color by 73.