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German City bike with a derailleur and internal hub!Hi Low range

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German City bike with a derailleur and internal hub!Hi Low range

Old 01-12-23, 06:51 PM
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German City bike with a derailleur and internal hub!Hi Low range

My brother in law spotted this German city bike in a junk place and picked it up for me.Aluminum tubes,Cute little tool box,lock,dynamo, a derailleur and an internal hub! Hi Low range








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Old 01-12-23, 07:19 PM
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Broken ESGE rack. Had one on a Koga Miyata that was wired and soldered together to fix the plastic. Is that a woods valve tube?
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Old 01-12-23, 07:36 PM
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Sachs Commander RD. According to Mike Sweatman's Disraeli Gears listing, that RD and shifting system actually preceeded Shimano's SIS. Indexing was based on a rotating stepped cam. It's paired with what's very likely a Sachs 2-speed rear hub to eliminate the FD.

I'd guess there's a good reason it didn't catch on. Two come to mind: weight and function. I'd guess the RD's shifting simply didn't work as well as SIS - especially since the RD didn't have a slant parallelogram.

But I could be wrong.
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Old 01-12-23, 07:53 PM
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I like hybrid transmissions. My personal favorite was a 14-16-18-20 cog cluster on an otherwise standard Sturmey-Archer AW hub with an elongated rear axle. 10 unique ratios out of 12, with useful redundancies at LOW 14 / MID 20 and at MID14 / HIGH 20. With the S-A trigger mounted right under the left brake lever and a standard downtube lever for the derailleur, double shifts were a breeze. Easy to downshift while stopped for easy restart, without having to plan a downshift in advance. Heavy and klunky, but fun.
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Old 01-13-23, 04:43 AM
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Cool setup. Sachs had a 7 cassette hub like that I really needed at one time.
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Old 01-13-23, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
Cool setup. Sachs had a 7 cassette hub like that I really needed at one time.
Sturmey-Archer still makes one - 3x internal with 8/9 speed Shimano-type freehub and 135mm rear OLD. (I've read elsewhere that they can be respaced down to at least 130mm.) SA also says they're "MTB/ATB" front/rear shifter compatible (Shimano, presumably). I assume they'd take a 10-speed cassette too with proper spacer, but then you'd have to run mismatched shifters (MTB front, road 10-speed rear). I believe the IG part requires an indexed front shifter and doesn't "play nice" with friction shifting, though.

Example: https://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/pr.../cs-rf3-silver

Specifications: https://www.sturmey-archer.com/files...0IGH%20F30.pdf

The product link is to the silver rim brake version; black is also available. They also have disc brake versions.

Provided for info; I haven't used one. But I've considered it.

Last edited by Hondo6; 01-13-23 at 08:37 AM. Reason: Correct typo.
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Old 01-13-23, 07:33 AM
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I'd like to see what model freewheel this system is running (my assumption is that they didn't use a 5-speed cassette). It looks to be approximately 13T or 14T by 24T, which is narrow range gearing for a city bike.

BTW, I've been riding a SRAM Dual Drive system since 2003 on my Cannondale. It's a 3-speed IGA and a 9-speed cassette (spaced 130mm). It evolved from this Sachs system, which is a new variation that I've not seen before. Is the RD branded "Sachs?"
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Old 01-13-23, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
Sturmey-Archer still makes one - 3x internal with 8/9 speed Shimano-type freehub and 135mm rear OLD. (I've read elsewhere that they can be respaced down to at least 130mm.) ... I believe the IG part requires an indexed front shifter and doesn't "play nice" with friction shifting, though.
On another bike I had an early Sturmey-Archer AWC (coaster brake 3-speed) hub, which I shifted using a non-indexed Huret downtube lever. No index? No Problem! First is all the way back, second is just above first, then a true neutral, and third was lever all the way forward. I never missed a shift or had it slip out of second gear, and that broad expanse of neutral (long lever travel from second to third) was perfect for repositioning the pedals for a quick restart from a stop. (Remember -- this was a coaster brake hub.)
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Old 01-13-23, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
I'd like to see what model freewheel this system is running (my assumption is that they didn't use a 5-speed cassette). It looks to be approximately 13T or 14T by 24T, which is narrow range gearing for a city bike.

BTW, I've been riding a SRAM Dual Drive system since 2003 on my Cannondale. It's a 3-speed IGA and a 9-speed cassette (spaced 130mm). It evolved from this Sachs system, which is a new variation that I've not seen before. Is the RD branded "Sachs?"
I believe this is the Sachs-branded version, PB. The version at the Disraeli Gears I linked is the Sachs-Huret version; that one has the names "Sachs" and "Huret" inside a square box on the upper part of the outer parallelogram plate. In the same location here, there appears to be a logo of some sort. Can't really tell much more than that from the photo's resolution, but I suspect it was a Sachs logo.

Further: in the documents page for this entry, Sweatman alludes to a Sachs-only-branded ("Sachs Commander") version. I'd guess this example to be one of those.

Sweatman's website also says there was an earlier Huret version of the Commander produced before Sachs bought Huret. But the photo of the Huret Commander on his site shows the word "Huret" spelled out before the "Commander" on the outer parallelogram plate, and that doesn't seem to be the case here.
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Old 01-13-23, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by garryg
My brother in law spotted this German city bike in a junk place and picked it up for me.Aluminum tubes,Cute little tool box,lock,dynamo, a derailleur and an internal hub! Hi Low range
Sachs had some pretty interesting designs over the years, the "Torpedo" internal 3 speed fights Sturmey Archer for "longest unchanged in production" bike part i think.

Patria WKC is a brand with a lot of Pedigree, they were among the very few larger german makers of high end racing bikes after WW2.
a 1949 lugless design:




The frame of the thread creator is not Aluminum though, it is lugged steel. The rest of the bits on it (like the notoriously bendy pressed Thun "Aero Coronado" crank) are lower middle class. A Workhorse.
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Old 01-13-23, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6

Sweatman's website also says there was an earlier Huret version of the Commander produced before Sachs bought Huret. But the photo of the Huret Commander on his site shows the word "Huret" spelled out before the "Commander" on the outer parallelogram plate, and that doesn't seem to be the case here.

-----

thanks so much for this post!

a couple years prior to the Sachs acquisition of Freres Huret a Huret branded hybrid gearing system launched under the name Orbita

recall reading a review of it in BICYCLING! magazine about 1976 (estimate date from an imperfect memory)

Sachs did a hybrid gearing system called Orbit

IIRC its launch was subsequent to the launch of the Huret Orbita system


-----

Last edited by juvela; 01-13-23 at 12:32 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 01-13-23, 01:52 PM
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Maun triangle is aluminum,the stays and fork are steel Hub is branded sachs orbit.RD is sachs commander.



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Old 01-13-23, 03:08 PM
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Sachs Orbit -

​​​​​​
​​​​​​

​​​​​​https://restoringvintagebicycles.com...-hub-overhaul/


-----
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Old 01-13-23, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by garryg
Maun triangle is aluminum
Trust me on that it isn't, it is lugged and brazed steel. I have yet to see a frame that has lugged Aluminum (in that price range) and or has mixed steel and aluminum on the tubes

Last edited by martl; 01-13-23 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 01-13-23, 05:23 PM
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-----


...would think it simple eno' to check the three main tubes with a magnet...



-----
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Old 01-13-23, 05:55 PM
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One can sort of see the first four letters, A, L, U, M, wonder what else it could refer to (?).
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Old 01-13-23, 06:12 PM
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Very nice and functional looking bike. I am a fan of hybrid gearing. I like three speed plenty, but always think that I need some in-between nowadays now that I have gotten used to be able to match my cadence to the gears so well. Back when I was younger, I thought three speeds are all you really need.

This looks like a great city bike. Being able to shift while stopped is great plus. You never know when you will be cut-off or obstructed when riding in urban areas. This also had a chainguard originally, which is another plus with hybrid gearing and use as a commuter. Dynamo lighting adds to the commuter functionality. I used to prefer the bottom bracket dynamos, but these bottle dynamos work well and being located on the front wheel allows you to keep an eye on it if the alignment shifts.

Thanks for showing it off here @garryg . Not a fancy Italian exotic, but a good and unusual bike for North America. We don't get to see stuff like this too often.
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Old 01-13-23, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----


...would think it simple eno' to check the three main tubes with a magnet...



-----
If you've ever seen an Aluminium frame with that kind of lugs, tell me
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Old 01-13-23, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by martl
Trust me on that it isn't, it is lugged and brazed steel. I have yet to see a frame that has lugged Aluminum (in that price range) and or has mixed steel and aluminum on the tubes
MAgnet does not stick to main triangle,it is aluminum
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Old 01-13-23, 06:45 PM
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Put a triple on that bad boy and get some "real" range!
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Old 01-13-23, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Hondo6
Sturmey-Archer still makes one - 3x internal with 8/9 speed Shimano-type freehub and 135mm rear OLD. (I've read elsewhere that they can be respaced down to at least 130mm.) SA also says they're "MTB/ATB" front/rear shifter compatible (Shimano, presumably). I assume they'd take a 10-speed cassette too with proper spacer, but then you'd have to run mismatched shifters (MTB front, road 10-speed rear). I believe the IG part requires an indexed front shifter and doesn't "play nice" with friction shifting, though.

Example: https://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/pr.../cs-rf3-silver

Specifications: https://www.sturmey-archer.com/files...0IGH%20F30.pdf

The product link is to the silver rim brake version; black is also available. They also have disc brake versions.

Provided for info; I haven't used one. But I've considered it.
Thanks for the information, I currently have this interesting setup but I think the gearing is just a bit too low with the triple. Nexus 8spd with Campagnolo triple


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Old 01-14-23, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by garryg
MAgnet does not stick to main triangle,it is aluminum
you may be right and I may be wrong. This may just be a highly unusual very special design... I'll Inquire!

Edit: found it. They actually marketed this very strange design as "unique aluminum glued". I assume the alu tubes are glued to steel stubs, which are then brazed to lugs traditional style. Talk about making things complicated for minimal gains

https://velopedia.online/Document/Show/845

Last edited by martl; 01-14-23 at 04:52 AM.
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Old 01-14-23, 08:18 AM
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@juvela , thanks for posting the technical brochure and the link. Very interesting system.
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Old 01-14-23, 10:17 AM
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-----

garryg -

in case you are curious as to date it is possible the Weinmann 605 calipers may carry a marking on the backside of the caliper arms

if present, it will be in the form of a clock face -



if not present it just means cycle manufactured prior to introduction of this marking system

---

thank you so much for sharing this most interesting cycle with the forum


-----
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Old 01-14-23, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by martl

Edit: found it. They actually marketed this very strange design as "unique aluminum glued". I assume the alu tubes are glued to steel stubs, which are then brazed to lugs traditional style. Talk about making things complicated for minimal gains

https://velopedia.online/Document/Show/845

Consider that the headtube and "lugs" may be a single piece with no brazing, just made to look like conventional bike construction. Trek did that too.
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