SJX426 

Sewup Clamp on Flickr

iab

Frejus085 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Cinelli_Model_B 054 by iabisdb, on Flickr

XCR 028 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Classtime 

An Arundel holds a tire along with a multi tool. But a Jandd can hold two tires.

BFisher 

Here's a question for those who have experience with tubulars and clinchers: Do you get similar mileage out of a nice tubular and a relatively comparable clincher, not regarding flats/damage?

El Chaba

Yes. (Although I ride many more miles on tubulars) You can buy tires from Veloflex, Vitoria, Continental, Challenge and no doubt others that feature EXACTLY the same tread and and casing material/weight in both clincher and tubular form with the only difference being the attachment method to the rim. The one tire life issue that falls in the favor of clinchers would be on a somewhat worn tire that is the victim of a minor* puncture. On a clincher you would just repair or replace the tube and put the tire back in service whereas with a tubular it would probably be the end of the tire’s life as it would make no sense to repair a tubular nearing the end of its wear.

* I define a minor puncture as one that pierces the tube but does not cause damage to the casing that would require repairs as well.

BFisher 

@El Chaba, that was my assumption, but it's good to get some confirmation from those who know. Thanks for your response.

I probably will pick up a set, either rims and hubs or a complete wheelset, and give them a try this year. What would my cycling adventure be without trying a good pair of tubulars on a vintage racing bike?

icemilkcoffee 

Question on wide tubulars on narrow rims. It seems like all the classic rims were meant for classic 21-22mm tubs. The radius of curvature is small. Now if you try to mount a 25mm+ tub on there, which has a larger radius of curvature, would there be an issue with the bottom not touching the bottom of the rim trough? I’m thinking mostly of tape mounting.

DiabloScott

Well yes except that if I do happen to get a flat on a tire that's say... 75% worn out, I'd be more likely to put on a new tubular and keep the clincher going for a while. But as far as actually wearing out - yeah, same-same.

I used to worry about that - used a sock or a rag around the tire, but it didn't seem necessary. After a while I quit worrying about it. Get the tire nice and tight so it doesn't wiggle around and rub the rails and it'll be fine. Maybe less true for ultra fragile tires.

79pmooney

I've seen more attention placed on folding and strapping tubulars in this thread than I ever placed on the action when I strapped tubulars (then, always sewups, "tubular" was for stuffy people). Sewups are robust. With DiabloScott's fold (that we all learned when the dinosaurs were still around) almost all contact is with the tread. Never heard of a seat rail or clamp doing any damage that mattered although I am sure there are some rude seatpost clamps out there. (I bet spare tires were a thought in the backs of the minds of the post designers of old since everybody did this. Well they did after wearing your tire as a cross-your-heartback bra faded from popularity.)

Regarding that fold - I always started with the valve so is was deeply buried in the final package. Yes, I did my best to squeeze out air first and the end result wasn't as small. (Some especially springy tires I would squeeze and close the valve.) I also shot for an exact number of folds so the final (valveless) fold ran the full length of the package. Put that final fold against the seat so it stayed in place after the strap.

And a thought I just had. I will suggest that pre-gluing spares might not have always been considered mandatory. Evidence? That cross-your-heartback bra style of carrying tires. I never recall seeing evidence of glue on their jerseys. (Just trying to keep the myth of tubulars right sized by pricking a few small holes in its balloon. Now I do run Tubasti again after 25 years of every day, every tire except my pure race wheels and then a 20 year layoff in the world of clinchers. The glue that stays like high quality movie theater chewing gum. No, not what they sell in the concession stands. The properly aged and even vintage stuff under the seats.)

79pmooney

The Ortleib carries two tires (folded valve first so not quite as small), tools and can expand to carry some clothes. It clips onto a mount that is a little awkward to install and takes up real estate when the bag is off but bag on and off is easy. I now have several bikes set up for them and two bags, my sewup bag and my clincher bag. So I can swap wheels and bag and done. Pump and go.

It appears in other respects to be classic Ortleib. Like it probably has many more years of use ahead than I have.

ehcoplex 

My thought exactly. I’ve got my 650b PX-10 ‘all-road/rando’, sport/light-tour Trek, C’dale ‘winter’ bike… so why not go full ‘vintage race’ with the Holdsworth?

iab

Not a problem for me and I put 34mm tubulars on the same rim. Never had a roll (knock on wood). Then again, the only racing I do is a 50-mile road race that I consider an organized ride with a rest stop only at the end. I am not tearing down a mountain descent.

Forgot to add a picture (currently does sport 34mm, this is an older pic)

Umberto Dei 01 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Wildwood

I ride both nice clinchers & tubulars.
Put me in the tubular camp for ride quality.

Conti 5000 = gatorskin of expensive tires.

Always buy tires on sale. Shelf life is pretty good.

Tubulars are not just a C&V thing either.

DiabloScott

C&V is the reason for me - my steel Merckx is the only bike I have sew-ups on, but I do ride them a lot even though I have a set of clinchers as backup for him.
Tubulars are just enough additional hassle and just not enough additional comfort for me to convert my fair-weather go-fast bike to sew-up.
I do have friends with race only wheels that are tubular, and sometimes they ask me to glue tires on for them, or check existing tires because they don't have the experience.

I don't see a lot of tubular people trying to convince clincher people that they should take the plunge... not the way tubeless advocates do, or disk brake lovers. It's more like support for people who are considering it anyway... the experience and assistance are here if you're interested.

ehcoplex 

Lovely looking ride. What are the 34 tubs you use? Are they slick/file tread, or a more cx type?

iab

Dugast Pipistrello. File pattern. It is used for pavement and gravel.

squirtdad

Jan Heine on commented on a instagram post that a 30 mm tubular was like a 34mm clincher fwiw

squirtdad

my experience is less extensive that a lot so the below is IMHO, YMMV

first thing to note good tires clincher or tubular make an amazing difference compared to cheaper tires, but cheap tubulars still seem smoother than cheap clinchers

first tubular the low end Tufo, taped on 36 h GP4 rims. smoother than the Michelin tires i was using (forget which one but they flicked the switch as to how important good (ie not cheap) tires make)

second tubular challenge elite 25mm on 32 h mavic gel 330 rims.... on my 84 team miyata. magical, smooth, compliant made the bike want to go compared to the bontrager clincher 25mm with super heavy tube on MA40 rims. this was at 130psi.
another lesson here, don't discount the impact a light rim/wheel can have on ride

third tubular Vittoria Corsa Control 30 mm on mavic open rims.... super supple nice ride can tell improvment over either corsa g+ or gp5000 in 28 mm would till have them but am in process of a "once in life time build" so sold them

next up but haven't finished wheels or gotten frame yet. 29mm FMP cobble stone, on Ambrosio nemesis rims with hope hubs..... my own hell of the north build (and have set of clinchers also with come rene herse tires so will be able to do some good comparison someday

El Chaba

I will follow up a bit more on what IAB wrote….Most of the classic tubular rims seem to be in the 20-22 mm range ( excepting track and time trial rims….eg. something like the Mavic CX18 @ 18 mm). As a result of the aero craze which started a little before but took hold starting in the early 80s, standard road racing tubulars got narrower by a couple of mm and settled at 21-22 mm. Prior to that, standard road racing tubulars were in the 23-25 mm range. If you go back to the mid 60 s and earlier you could add a couple more mm. The rims were the same width. Furthermore, people used these same rims for cyclocross tubulars, pave tubulars, and touring tubulars. I actually think that it is better to have a narrower rim with a slightly smaller radius for a wider tire than to have a wider rim with a larger radius for a narrower tire. The important step in the gluing ( or taping if you must) process is to take the final step of fully inflating the tire and pressing down on the wheel to firmly seat the tire against the adhesive on the rim bed. The whole base of the tire is, of course, flexible and will conform to the profile of the rim…..Then let the adhesive fully dry (12-24 hours will do) with the tires under pressure.

MooneyBloke

On the subject of avoiding casing abrasion from the rails, it occurs to me that one could put a piece of belt leather with slots for the strap between the saddle rails and the tire. Still a bag would be nice for carrying an inflator, a lever for lifting a dead tire off the adhesive if switching to the spare, and a place to put one's phone. I do wonder just how well the Arundel does with good 250g sew-up. I'm not too concerned with stiff tires here as I'm more likely to carry a patched Vittoria CX or Veloflex as a spare.

Dave Mayer

As per my earlier post, the main negative of clinchers (tubeless or otherwise) is the 2 'hooks' at the periphery of the rim required to hold the tire on. These are heavy, fragile, and cause pinch flats. Tubular rim profiles are rounder and therefore it is almost impossible to pinch flat a tubular tire. I've done it (once), but that required hitting a fist-sized chuck of metal in the dark at warp speeds, which immediately killed the tire. The rim was OK; if I'd been on clinchers, I'm sure this would have killed the rim, the tire, and then me.

So on clinchers, the tire has to have enough effective volume and air pressure to make sure that the tire does not bottom out on the rim and cause damage or a pinch flat. But on tubulars, since the rim is stronger and more resistant to impacts, and because you don't get pinch flats, you don't need as much air volume. So you don't need fat tires, and all the extra associated weight, higher rolling resistance, and increased aero drag.

On tubies you can run smaller tires at lower inflation pressures, which I think is why folks are feeling that tubulars are more 'comfortable' and 'supple'.

Anyway, just more observations as to why clinchers are a sorry distance second choice to tubulars. Good for training wheels and beater bikes, but not for go-fast riding. Tubeless? I suppose if you live in goathead country, but for a road bike, tubeless features even more negatives than regular clinchers, and makes little sense.

tremolo1965

I am currently riding FMB (Service Corse) - I rode them all summer and put a modest 1500 miles on them. They are probably have way worn, no flats. I think they ride better now than when they were new. They are some of the best tubulars I've used, well exceeding my abilities, yet..

However, before the FMBs, I was riding on Continental Giro which is a lower-end tubular. Even these performed favorably when compared to all previous experiences with clinchers.

I think that it comes down to basic design, as much as the finer points inherent in the more expensive products.

Observation - in addition to the safety issues, pinch flats, weight, weaker rims (all else equal), the torus profile of a tubular seems to respond to 'tire work' differently.

To qualify that statement (and I freely admit I am not digging too deep here - the physics are convoluted, and I'm not a tire engineer, but rather a person who's ridden bikes for 51 years) - but imagine the shock waves traveling from the center of the tread down the side walls, and interrupted by the tire bead where it contacts the rim and reflecting back. The dynamic is certainly different, to some degree, with a tubular profile - I imagine these harmonics travel in a somewhat less disrupted 'cycle' and this may...lessen the reflected back / standing wave effect which (I expect) occurs during the tire's rotation.

Whether or not this constitutes a hinderance (or alternately a benefit) - I cannot say for certain; but these harmonics must occur as the tire roles along, and that may be part of the reason why tubulars provide a more grounded connection to the pavement (or gravel for some of us), while simultaneously feeling light and responsive.

Hopefully this is not too abstract - feel free to discuss or dismiss.

Chris

Atlas Shrugged

Too bad almost all sporting cyclists, racers and manufactures can’t be convinced of your logic and hyperbole and have been abandoning tubulars for the past 40 years. It’s now virtually complete and tubulars are much like VCR machines sitting in Grandmas or Grandpas living room or in this case vintage bike collection in the basement/garage. Line up at any Fondo or other situation where sporting cyclists gather tubulars would represent under 1% at most. To save the response yes track events and cyclocross still ride tubulars. However Gravel events are 100% clincher tubeless.

Dave Mayer

Note I indicated go-fast riding. As in elite level riding where UCI points and $$$ are on the line. In these events, tubulars completely dominate every field: 'cross, road, track and even MTB. I wasn't referring to weekend warriors without sponsors. Or (poor) sponsors who don't have tubular options. There is no way that someone who is competitive at the highest level would compromise their performance and safety by riding on clinchers (including tubeless). Even if sponsors (whose goal is to sell expensive stuff to lawyers and doctors) puts intense pressure on them to ride more marketable gear.

Atlas Shrugged

For the record this years TdF, 15 of the 21 stages were won on clinchers so there goes that theory. MTB is totally dominated by tubeless with foam cushion cores so wrong on that. 100% of wins are with discs by the way as well. Yes track and approximately 50% of cross is on tubulars but that’s all that’s left out of this massive and diverse sport. You can rest assured if you go to any fast weekly ride or regional race the front runners are all on clinchers. That said if someone enjoys the retro aspect of running tubulars great but to say they are superior and remain relevant just is not factual. Manual transmissions in performance vehicles is another example of a much loved but dying technology.