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Tubs vs. Cinchers- ride/suppleness

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Tubs vs. Cinchers- ride/suppleness

Old 01-21-23, 01:03 AM
  #101  
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I have ridden with clinchers and never had flats on the other hand I have seen many people who were riding tubulars having flats. My Michelin Performer and my Michelin Axial clincher tires never gave me a single flat.My father had very problematic clinchers, the Vittoria Tecno Twin Thread Kevlar, he changed them by Hutchinson Krono Gold Tires and never had troubles. For my Peugeot upgrade and my other road bikes build, I will go with the Continental Grand Prix All Seasons. The tire size I have always had on my road bikes was 700*23c.
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Old 01-21-23, 01:13 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
For the record this years TdF, 15 of the 21 stages were won on clinchers so there goes that theory. MTB is totally dominated by tubeless with foam cushion cores so wrong on that. 100% of wins are with discs by the way as well. Yes track and approximately 50% of cross is on tubulars but that’s all that’s left out of this massive and diverse sport. You can rest assured if you go to any fast weekly ride or regional race the front runners are all on clinchers. That said if someone enjoys the retro aspect of running tubulars great but to say they are superior and remain relevant just is not factual. Manual transmissions in performance vehicles is another example of a much loved but dying technology.
That is true in the early late 90's some of theTour de France stages were won with clinchers, in 00's the clincher became the standard. The early MTB tubeless tires appearedin 1999/2000 with the Hutchinson Python Gold, Hutchinson Toro Gold, Michelin Wild Gripper Lite S, Continental Kross King and Schwalbe Rocket Ron tires. When I was into road biking racing competitions,only 30% used tubulars. Tubulars rims are generally more fragile and more expensive than clincher rims.
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Old 01-21-23, 01:58 AM
  #103  
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Tour stages won on clinchers? Are we talking about the wheels that were on the bikes during the team presentations? Or on the roof racks on the team cars? Or actually used while racing? Or used by team leaders on climbing stages and not the throwaway domestiques. You know what the CEO of Vittoria revealed about this bait and switch.

If there were clincher setups that featured 300g rims and 200g tires, and if the tire suddenly deflated it stays stuck solid onto the rim, well, then I'd be impressed.
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Old 01-21-23, 02:27 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Tour stages won on clinchers? Are we talking about the wheels that were on the bikes during the team presentations? Or on the roof racks on the team cars? Or actually used while racing? Or used by team leaders on climbing stages and not the throwaway domestiques. You know what the CEO of Vittoria revealed about this bait and switch.

If there were clincher setups that featured 300g rims and 200g tires, and if the tire suddenly deflated it stays stuck solid onto the rim, well, then I'd be impressed.
Yes there were Tour de France stages won with Clinchers,more about Julian Alaphilippe win in the tour de France, 2022 Tour de France who won with what and 2021 Tour de France who won with what. You will notice that most of the top 10 winners from theTDF were either running clinchers or/and tubeless. Specialized Clincher Tires winning the tour des Flandres is another proof that clinchers and tubeless are slightly becoming a force to be reckoned within the next years in the road bike racing events.
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Old 01-21-23, 05:50 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
For the record this years TdF, 15 of the 21 stages were won on clinchers so there goes that theory. MTB is totally dominated by tubeless with foam cushion cores so wrong on that. 100% of wins are with discs by the way as well. Yes track and approximately 50% of cross is on tubulars but that’s all that’s left out of this massive and diverse sport. You can rest assured if you go to any fast weekly ride or regional race the front runners are all on clinchers. That said if someone enjoys the retro aspect of running tubulars great but to say they are superior and remain relevant just is not factual. Manual transmissions in performance vehicles is another example of a much loved but dying technology.
I will ask two questions….Why isn’t every rider in the Tour de France ( and other Protour races…the Tour is not the only one) on clinchers? What does the industry want you to ride? I will give a hint for the second question….It is the type of tire that is more profitable and therefore the sponsors push….or even force… their riders to use them in order to create the impression that the rider chose them. I am not suggesting that profit is evil, that is why companies exist. Over the years I have observed-in person- at major pro races tubulars with markings/branding to disguise them as clinchers. I have yet to see an example of a clincher disguised as a tubular.
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Old 01-21-23, 08:08 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by El Chaba
I will ask two questions….Why isn’t every rider in the Tour de France ( and other Protour races…the Tour is not the only one) on clinchers? What does the industry want you to ride? I will give a hint for the second question….It is the type of tire that is more profitable and therefore the sponsors push….or even force… their riders to use them in order to create the impression that the rider chose them. I am not suggesting that profit is evil, that is why companies exist. Over the years I have observed-in person- at major pro races tubulars with markings/branding to disguise them as clinchers. I have yet to see an example of a clincher disguised as a tubular.
what brands were refering tubulars to clinchers ,I am curious to know.Vittoria was known to be a big tubular supplier under the Mappei,Rabobank, Polti Coppi and other pro teams in the 90's.Indurain and Bugno won a number of their races on Michelin hi lite clinchers back in the 90's
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Old 01-21-23, 08:30 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
Just ignore all the tests that show they are slower because I say so.
You have no idea about tubeless.
Glueing tubulars is not a time wasting PITA?
How do you repair your tubular on the side of the road, with a sewing kit?
Who is behind this big bike conspiracy against the superior tubular tire?
Been said many times and not understood many times! Tubulars get replaced on the road, not repaired. For my midwestern riding it was always adequate to carry a used, pre-glued tire. The used glue on the rim and that on the tire would meld together as the installed spare warmed up. One could, I suppose carry a tube of tubie glue and spot-apply it to be sure, but honestly I have finished rides or booked it home on tubulars with no added glue at all, and never had one fall off.

And, lose the conspiracy talk, please!
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Old 01-21-23, 09:46 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged
For the record this years TdF, 15 of the 21 stages were won on clinchers so there goes that theory. MTB is totally dominated by tubeless with foam cushion cores so wrong on that. 100% of wins are with discs by the way as well. Yes track and approximately 50% of cross is on tubulars but that’s all that’s left out of this massive and diverse sport. You can rest assured if you go to any fast weekly ride or regional race the front runners are all on clinchers. That said if someone enjoys the retro aspect of running tubulars great but to say they are superior and remain relevant just is not factual. Manual transmissions in performance vehicles is another example of a much loved but dying technology.
Do you have inside information that none of those 15 TdF winners "on clinchers" were not actually riding re-branded tubulars or simply swapped wheels after the finish (or did a convenient wheel change or bike swap mid-race)? Riding re-branded equipment in major races has been done forever. If you are going by the official gear of that team to make your statement re: relative wins, well that carries about the weight of a politician's promise.

We all know Merlin and Lightspeed bikes won a lot of races back in the day, but if you go by the team sponsors and equipment lists, you won't see those bikes being used. The makers of those bikes, wheels and tires didn't take the credit they were due because that would bring attention to the practice and have it shut down by the UCI, driven by the paying sponsors. But if all stayed quiet, sponsor got the wins and the makers of the equipment kept their profitable contracts.

Read the race reports by the "lesser" publications where the writers mention things like those wheels appearing re-badged. You won't see that in the magazines that are arms for the industry.
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Old 01-21-23, 10:38 AM
  #109  
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Now that those few pro tubular riders are resorting to conspiracy theories as to why no one rides tubulars anymore we are on the last vestiges of reason. I like how all examples of these conspiracies in cycling are all from over 30 years ago and much exaggerated. Our lives are filled with examples of a functioning item being replaced by superior technologies it’s part of the human condition. A guy down the street owns a Model A which he takes out on a nice Sunday but it’s not his daily driver because compared to a modern car it sucks. Not sure why this is so hard for the few to accept, enjoy the connection with your youth but to say tubulars play any relevance to modern cycling is silly.
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Old 01-21-23, 10:48 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by tiger1964
Wow -- how long did that take?

Looks like I'll be riding tubulars on one bike; just bought wheels which fortunately came with tires. Digesting Totally Tubular looks daunting.
Not as long as the Love for English three-speeds Thread!!!
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Old 01-21-23, 10:49 AM
  #111  
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Jeeze, this thread now belongs in the PITA trolls-nest the 'general cycling' sub-forum seems to mostly be. The original posed question was SPECIFICALLY about RIDE & SUPPLENESS. Usually I find the C&V sub-forum to be a nice, informative, useful and civil respite from standard-fare message-board bicker-sport.
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Old 01-21-23, 11:59 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by daka
I had enough fun on those crap Yellow Jersey tires that I have gathered parts to build a tubular wheelset for my Raleigh International. When I build those wheels, I will make sure to ante-up for better tires as recommended in this thread.
My view of the YJ tires, dating back about 20 years, barring a few odd carcass failures (have had them on the odd clincher as well!), is that while they not as comfortable, smooth, true, or pretty as say a $60 (about 15 years ago) hand-glued, latex-tubed, cleanly-glued Gommitalia 21 mm (referred by the emeritus Lotek!) or Challenge P-Rs in 27 mm, they do feel like a decent tubular (unlike Continental's cheapies, and the Vittoria Rallye), sing on the road and give you the basics of the tubular experience! Not bad, you have to spend $60 to best a $15 tire!
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Old 01-21-23, 12:44 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
Let's have a rational discussion where we look at differences and try to find discriminators between the two.

Tubular tape is not needed on a clincher but maybe rim tape is a close equivalent, so not much difference there.

Sealant works as well on clinchers as it does in tubulars. It either seals, or you need to patch.

Blow outs - I've had both blow out due to the terrible roads I was on which broke the cords. If you want to protect against a blow out, you have to carry a spare - same for both; doable for both, as modern clinchers are foldable.

Shipping to "Tire Alert" does not take "seconds". Packaging has to be done and you have to go to the UPS Store. It is nowhere close to free (~$40/tire), and makes that tire inaccessible for quite a while. I think the approach of repairing them yourself is more closely analogous to the clincher repair. Tubulars are easily and well repaired at home (while watching TV or whatever).

Yes, I just mounted a set of very tight clinchers. There is a technique to it but they are very doable. Is this a hand strength issue, similar to how some cannot get enough braking power? <-- honest question, here.

Tubulars are demonstrably lighter, overall. They do have a different feel when riding (I suspect some of this is the latex tubes). Latex tubes are available for clinchers, too. If you don't mind pumping before every single ride, try latex clincher tubes, first. You'll be doing that with your tubulars, as well.

I did not find anything above that was a major discriminator.

For me, that minor weight difference and the feel of latex tubes are not worth the hassle of tubular tires, especially if you are on poor road surfaces.
Pretty much across the board I agree, especially since most of your claims are factual, it is or it isn't, so thanks for minimizing and avoiding the generalizations.

As far as latex, I don't agree. I've owned very few latex sewups. My earliest set of tubulars was latex and I hated them because of the need to pump them up daily and sometimes even morning and evening. My Gommitalia Espressos are more enjoyable latexes but I'm not sure why, but they do have better suppleness and smoothness on my Mondonico, which has very fine and light custom road wheels. So I REALLY like those tires! In about 30 years perhaps I've learned something lol!

Mainly, most of my tubulars have been butyl, and have still had the tubular values I like, so basically my own experience does not agree with the idea that "it's not the tubular, it's the latex." Not to say you're dead wrong, but if you're dead right, I think I would not have had such strong preferences for several of my non-latex tires. For example Gommitalia has a cheap Thai-casing tire called the Champion. 22 mm, butyl tubes, pretty light, and about $22.00, and I think they feel totally good (this would be another "suppleness and smoothness" comment, to nod to the OP's initial point).

For some reason, I seem to like Gommitalia tubulars. They had a very high-end (FMB/Dugast pricing). I saw one once and if they had had two in the store I might have shelled out the $300 it would have cost! My Masi still needs a new pair of dress shoes!

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Old 01-21-23, 12:56 PM
  #114  
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Old 01-21-23, 01:08 PM
  #115  
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About rebranded tubulars to look like clinchers: pros have been relabeling stuff since the dawn of time. Remember when Huffy sponsored a World Tour-level team? These bikes were not made by Huffy.

Back to tires: I remember seeing a recent interview with the head of Vittoria, who expressed some frustration that his competitors were using his (latex tubed) tubular tires, and rebranded them as there own. This is because the competing teams did not have tubular tire options, or even tubular wheel options. Nevertheless, pro bike racing is about selling stuff. Your platinum-card weekend warrior could not be bothered with tubulars, so you have to pass off tubular wheels as clinchers/tubeless - that is something you can actually market. So you apply some hot glue and decals to your tires and rims, ride Vittoria tubulars and preserve a competitive advantage. Win win.

With disc brakes in the pro peloton, you cannot get sponsored if your riding rim brakes, so at now least everyone is equally handicapped, and you don't have to fake your gear.

Here is a summary of the advantages of tubulars from Zinn, who knows more about bike related topics than the total sum of everyone here:

Technical FAQ: Tubular vs tubeless tires - VeloNews.com
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Old 01-21-23, 01:17 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by iab
Dugast Pipistrello. File pattern. It is used for pavement and gravel.

That diamond pattern was on the old Hutchison Sprints that I used to buy in Chicago!
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Old 01-21-23, 01:31 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
my experience is less extensive that a lot so the below is IMHO, YMMV

first thing to note good tires clincher or tubular make an amazing difference compared to cheaper tires, but cheap tubulars still seem smoother than cheap clinchers

first tubular the low end Tufo, taped on 36 h GP4 rims. smoother than the Michelin tires i was using (forget which one but they flicked the switch as to how important good (ie not cheap) tires make)

second tubular challenge elite 25mm on 32 h mavic gel 330 rims.... on my 84 team miyata. magical, smooth, compliant made the bike want to go compared to the bontrager clincher 25mm with super heavy tube on MA40 rims. this was at 130psi.
another lesson here, don't discount the impact a light rim/wheel can have on ride

third tubular Vittoria Corsa Control 30 mm on mavic open rims.... super supple nice ride can tell improvment over either corsa g+ or gp5000 in 28 mm would till have them but am in process of a "once in life time build" so sold them

next up but haven't finished wheels or gotten frame yet. 29mm FMP cobble stone, on Ambrosio nemesis rims with hope hubs..... my own hell of the north build (and have set of clinchers also with come rene herse tires so will be able to do some good comparison someday
A bit off-topic, but I have 30 mm Vittoria Corsa Control + clinchers on my Mondonico Futura Leggero! The fitter at the bike shop (FitMi in Ann Arbor) said it is the ballet slipper of road bicycle tires. That description got me. At the momeht it's wasted on my Wahoo trainer, but I'm looking forward to taking that bike on the road with about 65 psi front and rear per the Silca Tire Calculator. It's one of my Post Covid Return to Road motivators!
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Old 01-21-23, 01:38 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by El Chaba
I will follow up a bit more on what IAB wrote….Most of the classic tubular rims seem to be in the 20-22 mm range ( excepting track and time trial rims….eg. something like the Mavic CX18 @ 18 mm). As a result of the aero craze which started a little before but took hold starting in the early 80s, standard road racing tubulars got narrower by a couple of mm and settled at 21-22 mm. Prior to that, standard road racing tubulars were in the 23-25 mm range. If you go back to the mid 60 s and earlier you could add a couple more mm. The rims were the same width. Furthermore, people used these same rims for cyclocross tubulars, pave tubulars, and touring tubulars. I actually think that it is better to have a narrower rim with a slightly smaller radius for a wider tire than to have a wider rim with a larger radius for a narrower tire. The important step in the gluing ( or taping if you must) process is to take the final step of fully inflating the tire and pressing down on the wheel to firmly seat the tire against the adhesive on the rim bed. The whole base of the tire is, of course, flexible and will conform to the profile of the rim…..Then let the adhesive fully dry (12-24 hours will do) with the tires under pressure.
Another point is that with a wide enough tire a road bike brake might not epen enough to enable wheel extraction without deflating the tire - a new PITA. Another point is that vintage performance frames the dropouts might be horizontal and the chainstays might be short, which could pin the rear tire inside the rear triangle - you would need to mill down the front of the dropout to restore the quick release function or have the dropouts replaced with vertical ones. This would be a job for Doug Fattic, a Matt Assenmacher, or similarly talented frame technology expert. So some frames just will not be suitable for wide tires.
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Old 01-21-23, 01:47 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by georges1
That is true in the early late 90's some of theTour de France stages were won with clinchers, in 00's the clincher became the standard. The early MTB tubeless tires appearedin 1999/2000 with the Hutchinson Python Gold, Hutchinson Toro Gold, Michelin Wild Gripper Lite S, Continental Kross King and Schwalbe Rocket Ron tires. When I was into road biking racing competitions,only 30% used tubulars. Tubulars rims are generally more fragile and more expensive than clincher rims.
TdF standards do change over time, though it seems to be a slower evoluiton than for the open market.

Overall it's best to remain analytical, rather than to assume the current TdF standards and especially the past TdF standards are best or worst for you. I like Dave Mayer's analytical approach to "How can I solve the problems and risks which I see?" Just doing what works best on fine white gravel at 3000 m altitude in Italia, for example, is not necessarily going to deliver the answer which I willd need on the MUPs here in Michigan.
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Old 01-21-23, 03:23 PM
  #120  
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Here are a couple of photos from La Vuelta that I took a few years ago…Michelin and Specialized “clinchers” .


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Old 01-21-23, 03:41 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan
...not necessarily going to deliver the answer which I willd need on the MUPs here in Michigan.

At least you're not dealing with a bunch of ugly new chip-seal as I had to in the Grand Traverse area in late summer and fall. Bleah! That crap makes a lousy ride no matter the tire quality.
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Old 01-21-23, 03:47 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
About rebranded tubulars to look like clinchers: pros have been relabeling stuff since the dawn of time. Remember when Huffy sponsored a World Tour-level team? These bikes were not made by Huffy.
As I recall, those Murray and Huffy bikes were done by Ben Serotta.

I was aware of badge engineering even back when I was a kid riding whatever I could afford at the time. I don't suspect anything's changed. There's even a thread here about a sale on badge engineered Veloflexes.

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Old 01-21-23, 03:52 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
first tubular the low end Tufo, taped on 36 h GP4 rims...

second tubular challenge elite 25mm on 32 h mavic gel 330 rims...
I used to ride both these rims, and miss them. I do wonder whether the drive-side tension in a modern 10-12 speed rear is too high for their safe use though.

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Old 01-21-23, 04:19 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by El Chaba
Here are a couple of photos from La Vuelta that I took a few years ago…Michelin and Specialized “clinchers” .


the Campagnolo Bora was made in clincher and tubeless version back in the late 2010's . The Michelin Pro 4 Tubular was introduced back in 2013 so it is nothing new since, it was announced as a tubular and never advertised as a clincher. Also very interesting article about why the time of tubulars is coming to an end. The Specialized Hell of North ,one heck of a tubular was not subcontracted but made entirely in the USA. This was the tires selection among the teams on the Tour de France 2022. Most used brands by the professional teams are Continental and Vittoria.
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Old 01-21-23, 09:08 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by ehcoplex
Jeeze, this thread now belongs in the PITA trolls-nest the 'general cycling' sub-forum seems to mostly be. The original posed question was SPECIFICALLY about RIDE & SUPPLENESS. Usually I find the C&V sub-forum to be a nice, informative, useful and civil respite from standard-fare message-board bicker-sport.
Specifically about ride and suppleness, I think the answer is: It depends. Once again, generalizations are inadequate, even in the abstract. In my own experience, both my Conti Giro 23mm sew-ups and my Specialized Turbo R 21mm clinchers felt similarly bumpy, and my 28 mm Turbo Cottons and 28 mm Vittoria Corsa sew-ups feel similarly smooth. But the former were before they re-paved the roads around here!
I may not be a qualified 'ride & suppleness' connoisseur...
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