Roller Cam bottom mount rear brake?
01-31-23, 09:00 PM
#1
john903
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Roller Cam bottom mount rear brake?
Hello, Its been awhile since I have been in my shop. A project frame fell into my shop the other day. It is an old 80's Shogun Mt. bike which I want to turn into a townie commuter. The thing is the rear brakes have the brake studs on the bottom of the chain stays. So I am guessing it had roller cam brakes. I don't really want to go that route so what options or ideas does the collective have for something else. I was thinking maybe single speed with a coaster brake or 5 speed SA with a coaster brake. There is a bolt hole in the brake bridge so maybe a long reach caliper brake might work. Any ideas folks?
Thank You in advance.
Thank You in advance.
01-31-23, 09:07 PM
#2
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What don't you like about the roller cam?
Brent
Brent
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01-31-23, 09:12 PM
#3
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Hi Brent. It's not that I don't like roller cams. I just think it would be hard to track them down, and I don't want to spend a lot for them. Saying that they may be easy to find and reasonably priced. I have only checked craigslist so far.
Thanks
Thanks
01-31-23, 09:28 PM
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Forgive my ignorance, but do U-brakes mount to the same boss? That may be a good modern option if so.
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01-31-23, 09:40 PM
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01-31-23, 09:47 PM
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I don’t know if they are still available but I saw an NOS set of Suntour roller cams for less than $50 on the ‘bay a few months ago.
01-31-23, 10:00 PM
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Ah the knuckle cutter location that is placed close to lube splat from the chain. Chainstay mounts were an attempt to reduce boss spread from the twisting forces brake arms see. Many shop wrenches were very glad to see these pretty much die off.
As mentioned U brakes (as of a little while ago still common in the BMX/Freestyle/street bike world) will mount of roller cam bosses. Andy
As mentioned U brakes (as of a little while ago still common in the BMX/Freestyle/street bike world) will mount of roller cam bosses. Andy
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01-31-23, 10:36 PM
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02-01-23, 09:04 AM
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U-brakes are still alive and well in BMX; which is good for those of us with 80s MTBs.
Dan's Comp BMX has a pretty good selection; new brakes come with new pads, cables and hangers/ hardware, so no faffing about trying to get 30-year-old used parts to work. Some of the kits are pretty reasonably priced, too.
Dan's Comp BMX has a pretty good selection; new brakes come with new pads, cables and hangers/ hardware, so no faffing about trying to get 30-year-old used parts to work. Some of the kits are pretty reasonably priced, too.
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02-01-23, 11:21 AM
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U-brakes were designed to use the same studs as roller cams, when the latter fell out of favor due to poor performance in muddy conditions.
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02-01-23, 01:23 PM
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Early days of NORBA, I'm pretty sure it was the first Norba-sanctioned race in Washington state. The entry form required you to have a Norba license but they let you sign up on the spot, and you could pick any category, so on a lark I ticked "Pro". So technically I was a Norba pro, briefly.
Somewhat rinky-dink local race with a scant prize list, but there were portable bleachers for spectators, an announcer with a PA system, some trappings of a "real" race. There were few pros there and no big name stars, I'm sure no one traveled from out of state to come to this race. But the Raleigh Technium team was there, and a guy who finished Iditabike, can't remember if he placed or not, but endurance out the yingyang. One guy, I think his name was Greg Gonzalez, had won all the local races and was definitely faster than me, and there were some good Cat 2 roadies who I knew could smoke me on a good day. But they all had chainstay rollercams or maybe U-brakes, and the course was extremely muddy. The promoter had put down straw or hay all through the start/finish area for people to walk on without sinking in. The course was shortish with multiple laps and each time the bikes went through the straw, it would pack into the tight space around the brake with the mud and make a brick.
I was riding a custom I made myself with roadbike-size Prestige tubing, very light, and crucially, v.good mud clearance, and seatstay canti brakes. I started mid pack but as the laps wore on the pros got slower and slower and I picked them off, passing Greg Gonzalez very close to the finish line. The announcer couldn't see anyone's race numbers due to the mud so he just announced it as "...and the guy on the cyclocross bike wins it!" Which pissed me off because it was so totally a MTB that when I tried to race CX on it they wouldn't let me, they had a "no MTBs" rule! But this announcer had never seen a MTB with drop bars I guess.
I went over to Greg G's bike after the race and tried to move his rear wheel, could barely get it to turn with both hands. I don't know how he pedaled it at all, super human.
But technically I won a Norba race in the Pros. Sadly it was to be my last win, because at the very next race a week later all the Technium pros had hastily-brazed seatstay canti bosses, not even repainted, just burnt paint around the site of the braze. They got them cleaned up and repainted later, but I saw them race with the burnt paint at least once. Raleigh of America might not have been too happy about that, making the bikes look different from what bike shops were selling, so I assume the racers revolted and said "no way we're riding these bikes like this in one more race, fix it!" Or maybe they had a local framebuilder put the cantis on without even telling Raleigh? If I asked, I don't remember the answer. Might have been a touchy subject for them!
I still have that road-Prestige framed MTB from '84 though. Everyone said it wouldn't last, but I raced it for years, toured fully loaded, rode all the "gonzo-abusive" rides in Moab, Pearl Pass Tour in CB etc etc. Rigid fork (also road Prestige) since sus forks didn't exist back then. At some point after the turn of the century I got a sus bike, and the old nag was hung on a hook, doesn't get ridden much but there's too much sentimental value to toss it.
Mark B in Seattle
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02-01-23, 01:51 PM
#12
john903
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Hey everyone thanks for the reply's and suggestions. I hadn't thought about U brakes for a BMX bike. I may try that.
02-01-23, 02:21 PM
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They must be rare. Just did an Images search for "Suntour roller cam leather cover" --- nothing.
02-01-23, 04:40 PM
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I still have a couple of Suntour-branded roller-cam "sweaters," as we called them at the shop where I worked: thin, soft leather that wraps around the rollers and cam and fastens on the back side with Velcro.
They must be rare. Just did an Images search for "Suntour roller cam leather cover" --- nothing.
They must be rare. Just did an Images search for "Suntour roller cam leather cover" --- nothing.
Like the LizardSkins neoprene covers for the mtb stuff that were popular in the '90s. I guess it must be to keep mud out. I wonder if this would be a good application for a shorty fender of some sort.
I had a Pug Orient Express that I put a U-brake on. Worked well. Somewhat less prone to contamination than the rollercam.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
02-01-23, 05:42 PM
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I still have a couple of Suntour-branded roller-cam "sweaters," as we called them at the shop where I worked: thin, soft leather that wraps around the rollers and cam and fastens on the back side with Velcro.
They must be rare. Just did an Images search for "Suntour roller cam leather cover" --- nothing.
They must be rare. Just did an Images search for "Suntour roller cam leather cover" --- nothing.
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02-01-23, 05:48 PM
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Great story!
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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02-01-23, 06:57 PM
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Stop me if you've heard this one... I won a race thanks to chainstay rollercams!
Early days of NORBA, I'm pretty sure it was the first Norba-sanctioned race in Washington state. The entry form required you to have a Norba license but they let you sign up on the spot, and you could pick any category, so on a lark I ticked "Pro". So technically I was a Norba pro, briefly.
Somewhat rinky-dink local race with a scant prize list, but there were portable bleachers for spectators, an announcer with a PA system, some trappings of a "real" race. There were few pros there and no big name stars, I'm sure no one traveled from out of state to come to this race. But the Raleigh Technium team was there, and a guy who finished Iditabike, can't remember if he placed or not, but endurance out the yingyang. One guy, I think his name was Greg Gonzalez, had won all the local races and was definitely faster than me, and there were some good Cat 2 roadies who I knew could smoke me on a good day. But they all had chainstay rollercams or maybe U-brakes, and the course was extremely muddy. The promoter had put down straw or hay all through the start/finish area for people to walk on without sinking in. The course was shortish with multiple laps and each time the bikes went through the straw, it would pack into the tight space around the brake with the mud and make a brick.
I was riding a custom I made myself with roadbike-size Prestige tubing, very light, and crucially, v.good mud clearance, and seatstay canti brakes. I started mid pack but as the laps wore on the pros got slower and slower and I picked them off, passing Greg Gonzalez very close to the finish line. The announcer couldn't see anyone's race numbers due to the mud so he just announced it as "...and the guy on the cyclocross bike wins it!" Which pissed me off because it was so totally a MTB that when I tried to race CX on it they wouldn't let me, they had a "no MTBs" rule! But this announcer had never seen a MTB with drop bars I guess.
I went over to Greg G's bike after the race and tried to move his rear wheel, could barely get it to turn with both hands. I don't know how he pedaled it at all, super human.
But technically I won a Norba race in the Pros. Sadly it was to be my last win, because at the very next race a week later all the Technium pros had hastily-brazed seatstay canti bosses, not even repainted, just burnt paint around the site of the braze. They got them cleaned up and repainted later, but I saw them race with the burnt paint at least once. Raleigh of America might not have been too happy about that, making the bikes look different from what bike shops were selling, so I assume the racers revolted and said "no way we're riding these bikes like this in one more race, fix it!" Or maybe they had a local framebuilder put the cantis on without even telling Raleigh? If I asked, I don't remember the answer. Might have been a touchy subject for them!
I still have that road-Prestige framed MTB from '84 though. Everyone said it wouldn't last, but I raced it for years, toured fully loaded, rode all the "gonzo-abusive" rides in Moab, Pearl Pass Tour in CB etc etc. Rigid fork (also road Prestige) since sus forks didn't exist back then. At some point after the turn of the century I got a sus bike, and the old nag was hung on a hook, doesn't get ridden much but there's too much sentimental value to toss it.
Mark B in Seattle
Early days of NORBA, I'm pretty sure it was the first Norba-sanctioned race in Washington state. The entry form required you to have a Norba license but they let you sign up on the spot, and you could pick any category, so on a lark I ticked "Pro". So technically I was a Norba pro, briefly.
Somewhat rinky-dink local race with a scant prize list, but there were portable bleachers for spectators, an announcer with a PA system, some trappings of a "real" race. There were few pros there and no big name stars, I'm sure no one traveled from out of state to come to this race. But the Raleigh Technium team was there, and a guy who finished Iditabike, can't remember if he placed or not, but endurance out the yingyang. One guy, I think his name was Greg Gonzalez, had won all the local races and was definitely faster than me, and there were some good Cat 2 roadies who I knew could smoke me on a good day. But they all had chainstay rollercams or maybe U-brakes, and the course was extremely muddy. The promoter had put down straw or hay all through the start/finish area for people to walk on without sinking in. The course was shortish with multiple laps and each time the bikes went through the straw, it would pack into the tight space around the brake with the mud and make a brick.
I was riding a custom I made myself with roadbike-size Prestige tubing, very light, and crucially, v.good mud clearance, and seatstay canti brakes. I started mid pack but as the laps wore on the pros got slower and slower and I picked them off, passing Greg Gonzalez very close to the finish line. The announcer couldn't see anyone's race numbers due to the mud so he just announced it as "...and the guy on the cyclocross bike wins it!" Which pissed me off because it was so totally a MTB that when I tried to race CX on it they wouldn't let me, they had a "no MTBs" rule! But this announcer had never seen a MTB with drop bars I guess.
I went over to Greg G's bike after the race and tried to move his rear wheel, could barely get it to turn with both hands. I don't know how he pedaled it at all, super human.
But technically I won a Norba race in the Pros. Sadly it was to be my last win, because at the very next race a week later all the Technium pros had hastily-brazed seatstay canti bosses, not even repainted, just burnt paint around the site of the braze. They got them cleaned up and repainted later, but I saw them race with the burnt paint at least once. Raleigh of America might not have been too happy about that, making the bikes look different from what bike shops were selling, so I assume the racers revolted and said "no way we're riding these bikes like this in one more race, fix it!" Or maybe they had a local framebuilder put the cantis on without even telling Raleigh? If I asked, I don't remember the answer. Might have been a touchy subject for them!
I still have that road-Prestige framed MTB from '84 though. Everyone said it wouldn't last, but I raced it for years, toured fully loaded, rode all the "gonzo-abusive" rides in Moab, Pearl Pass Tour in CB etc etc. Rigid fork (also road Prestige) since sus forks didn't exist back then. At some point after the turn of the century I got a sus bike, and the old nag was hung on a hook, doesn't get ridden much but there's too much sentimental value to toss it.
Mark B in Seattle
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1987 Crest Cannondale, 1987 Basso Gap, 1992 Rossin Performance EL, 1990ish Van Tuyl, 1985 Trek 670, 1982 AD SLE, 2003 Pinarello Surprise, 1990ish MBK Atlantique, 1987 Peugeot Competition, 1987 Nishiki Tri-A, 1981 Faggin, 1996 Cannondale M500, 1984 Mercian, 1982 AD SuperLeicht, 1985 Massi (model unknown), 1988 Daccordi Griffe , 1989 Fauxsin MTB, 1981 Ciocc Mockba, 1992 Bianchi Giro, 1977 Colnago Super
02-01-23, 07:24 PM
#18
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RollerCam front (unusual for the KOM-10, presumably an early-production fork); catalogue shows cantis; U-brake rear (standard on the KOM-10). Combination works well.
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
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Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
02-01-23, 07:26 PM
#19
feros ferio
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RollerCam front (unusual for the KOM-10, presumably an early-production fork; catalogue shows canti up front); U-brake rear (standard on the KOM-10). Combination works well.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
02-02-23, 01:23 AM
#20
blahblahblah chrome moly
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Thanks, I just realized I don't really have a gallery for that bike, just a few snapshots at the mo. The baby pictures from when it was new are on 35 mm slides, never got around to scanning them.
But here's a few teasers.
This is the second paint job for the frame and the third for the fork. In the '90s I wasn't in love with the frame so much anymore so I chopped it and made it into a Softride beam bike. I do regret that now! But these pics are of parts that are original from '84.
Cinelli crown, much modified and lightened by me. Prestige road blades.
The lugs and BB shell were made by me, from Cr-Mo tubes, brass fillet brazed together at the necessary angles, then machined, filed and thinned. Just to get the lugs and shell.
The "undersized" Prestige road bike toptube and downtube had unusual internal reinforcements at the front (headtube end), to which I attribute the frame's long life under this big fat sprinter. They're basically triple butted, with a substantial butt at the HT end. Very light behind that, but with a long slow tapered transition. The reinforcements were machined from Cr-Mo tube also, to a precision press fit inside the Prestige. They were pressed in with the tubes fresh out of the pizza oven, and the inserts right outta the freezer. Went in perfectly to full depth, even though they wouldn't fit at room temp. Once the temperatures equalize, they are locked together forever. I never made another one quite like it, so we have a sample size of one, and an unquantifiable service life (I snort derisively at the very idea of keeping mileage logs, sorry). But my gut says this is a good way to make a bike — in 1984. Not exactly cutting edge now though, innit?
Zeus dropouts, with stainless faces silvered on. Dunno why the painter didn't mask them. Or why I didn't scrape the paint to show the SS; too lazy I guess. Or why that ugly skewer nut is on there, ugh! The weird shallow angle the seatstay is seen taking off at is due to the frame having been chopped down to a Softride config.
The idea of the track dropouts* was that if you tore the derailer off on a rock, you could shorten the chain and ride it home as a single speed. But in the 20 years I rode it, that never once happened, teaching me the true meaning of "theoretical". This was the second custom MTB I made for rear-facing dropouts, the first was in '81. I didn't do it again after this one though and now I think it's a little dumb. But it was early days.
Sorry this is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter.
Mark B
But here's a few teasers.
This is the second paint job for the frame and the third for the fork. In the '90s I wasn't in love with the frame so much anymore so I chopped it and made it into a Softride beam bike. I do regret that now! But these pics are of parts that are original from '84.
Cinelli crown, much modified and lightened by me. Prestige road blades.
The lugs and BB shell were made by me, from Cr-Mo tubes, brass fillet brazed together at the necessary angles, then machined, filed and thinned. Just to get the lugs and shell.
The "undersized" Prestige road bike toptube and downtube had unusual internal reinforcements at the front (headtube end), to which I attribute the frame's long life under this big fat sprinter. They're basically triple butted, with a substantial butt at the HT end. Very light behind that, but with a long slow tapered transition. The reinforcements were machined from Cr-Mo tube also, to a precision press fit inside the Prestige. They were pressed in with the tubes fresh out of the pizza oven, and the inserts right outta the freezer. Went in perfectly to full depth, even though they wouldn't fit at room temp. Once the temperatures equalize, they are locked together forever. I never made another one quite like it, so we have a sample size of one, and an unquantifiable service life (I snort derisively at the very idea of keeping mileage logs, sorry). But my gut says this is a good way to make a bike — in 1984. Not exactly cutting edge now though, innit?
Zeus dropouts, with stainless faces silvered on. Dunno why the painter didn't mask them. Or why I didn't scrape the paint to show the SS; too lazy I guess. Or why that ugly skewer nut is on there, ugh!
The weird shallow angle the seatstay is seen taking off at is due to the frame having been chopped down to a Softride config.The idea of the track dropouts* was that if you tore the derailer off on a rock, you could shorten the chain and ride it home as a single speed. But in the 20 years I rode it, that never once happened, teaching me the true meaning of "theoretical". This was the second custom MTB I made for rear-facing dropouts, the first was in '81. I didn't do it again after this one though and now I think it's a little dumb. But it was early days.
Sorry this is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter.
Mark B
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02-02-23, 01:49 AM
#21
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Ah Sequim. Haystack fries still a thing?
Get yourself over to Seattle to the bike recycler on Lake Union. They have bins and bins of brakes like you need, $5 a pop.
Get yourself over to Seattle to the bike recycler on Lake Union. They have bins and bins of brakes like you need, $5 a pop.
__________________
"Leave the gun. Take the Colnagos."
"Leave the gun. Take the Colnagos."
02-02-23, 06:21 AM
#22
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Thanks, I just realized I don't really have a gallery for that bike, just a few snapshots at the mo. The baby pictures from when it was new are on 35 mm slides, never got around to scanning them.
But here's a few teasers.
This is the second paint job for the frame and the third for the fork. In the '90s I wasn't in love with the frame so much anymore so I chopped it and made it into a Softride beam bike. I do regret that now! But these pics are of parts that are original from '84.
Cinelli crown, much modified and lightened by me. Prestige road blades.
The lugs and BB shell were made by me, from Cr-Mo tubes, brass fillet brazed together at the necessary angles, then machined, filed and thinned. Just to get the lugs and shell.
The "undersized" Prestige road bike toptube and downtube had unusual internal reinforcements at the front (headtube end), to which I attribute the frame's long life under this big fat sprinter. They're basically triple butted, with a substantial butt at the HT end. Very light behind that, but with a long slow tapered transition. The reinforcements were machined from Cr-Mo tube also, to a precision press fit inside the Prestige. They were pressed in with the tubes fresh out of the pizza oven, and the inserts right outta the freezer. Went in perfectly to full depth, even though they wouldn't fit at room temp. Once the temperatures equalize, they are locked together forever. I never made another one quite like it, so we have a sample size of one, and an unquantifiable service life (I snort derisively at the very idea of keeping mileage logs, sorry). But my gut says this is a good way to make a bike — in 1984. Not exactly cutting edge now though, innit?
Zeus dropouts, with stainless faces silvered on. Dunno why the painter didn't mask them. Or why I didn't scrape the paint to show the SS; too lazy I guess. Or why that ugly skewer nut is on there, ugh! The weird shallow angle the seatstay is seen taking off at is due to the frame having been chopped down to a Softride config.
The idea of the track dropouts* was that if you tore the derailer off on a rock, you could shorten the chain and ride it home as a single speed. But in the 20 years I rode it, that never once happened, teaching me the true meaning of "theoretical". This was the second custom MTB I made for rear-facing dropouts, the first was in '81. I didn't do it again after this one though and now I think it's a little dumb. But it was early days.
Sorry this is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter.
Mark B
But here's a few teasers.
This is the second paint job for the frame and the third for the fork. In the '90s I wasn't in love with the frame so much anymore so I chopped it and made it into a Softride beam bike. I do regret that now! But these pics are of parts that are original from '84.
Cinelli crown, much modified and lightened by me. Prestige road blades.
The lugs and BB shell were made by me, from Cr-Mo tubes, brass fillet brazed together at the necessary angles, then machined, filed and thinned. Just to get the lugs and shell.
The "undersized" Prestige road bike toptube and downtube had unusual internal reinforcements at the front (headtube end), to which I attribute the frame's long life under this big fat sprinter. They're basically triple butted, with a substantial butt at the HT end. Very light behind that, but with a long slow tapered transition. The reinforcements were machined from Cr-Mo tube also, to a precision press fit inside the Prestige. They were pressed in with the tubes fresh out of the pizza oven, and the inserts right outta the freezer. Went in perfectly to full depth, even though they wouldn't fit at room temp. Once the temperatures equalize, they are locked together forever. I never made another one quite like it, so we have a sample size of one, and an unquantifiable service life (I snort derisively at the very idea of keeping mileage logs, sorry). But my gut says this is a good way to make a bike — in 1984. Not exactly cutting edge now though, innit?
Zeus dropouts, with stainless faces silvered on. Dunno why the painter didn't mask them. Or why I didn't scrape the paint to show the SS; too lazy I guess. Or why that ugly skewer nut is on there, ugh!
The weird shallow angle the seatstay is seen taking off at is due to the frame having been chopped down to a Softride config.The idea of the track dropouts* was that if you tore the derailer off on a rock, you could shorten the chain and ride it home as a single speed. But in the 20 years I rode it, that never once happened, teaching me the true meaning of "theoretical". This was the second custom MTB I made for rear-facing dropouts, the first was in '81. I didn't do it again after this one though and now I think it's a little dumb. But it was early days.
Sorry this is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter.
Mark B
Oddly, I just saw a Klein that had rear facing vertical drops. It was interesting. I wondered how wheel changes are done.
02-02-23, 11:16 AM
#24
PeopleCode delaminator
As others have mentioned u-brakes will fit those posts.
Porkchop BMX has Dia-Compe u-brakes that look period appropriate, if that matters to you.
Plus, they're reasonably priced and very high quality.
Porkchop BMX has Dia-Compe u-brakes that look period appropriate, if that matters to you.
Plus, they're reasonably priced and very high quality.
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02-02-23, 11:55 AM
#25
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I don't recall ever seeing chainstay mounted roller cam brakes - this (terrible) position was exclusively used with U brakes IIRC. The distance between the bottom bracket, under which the cable was routed, and the brake would generaly be too short for roller cams. I know this because the distance was damn near too short for U brakes, which are shorter than roller cams. In fact, if I correctly recall the under-BB-brake bikes I worked on BITD, unless U brakes are set up with an extremely short straddle cable, the cable yoke was always at risk of bottoming out against the cable guide. Roller cam brake arms are longer than U brake arms, and the 'cam' took up a lot more space than the yoke did on U brakes.
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