Paintking

Sorry if this is a double post:

Details to follow

Paintking

Sorry, my original detailed post went missing. So, as I was saying:

Just acquired this frame. No history came with it. I'm wondering where it came from, who might have made it, and what year it hales from.

Fragmentary Reynolds 531 label on the seat tube, "Cinelli-Style" sloping fork crown, Campagnolo dropouts front and back. No brass-ons: no cable guides, no water bottle holes, and no shifter nub on the backside of the downtube. Rear brake bridge is somewhat unusual. Relatively long pointed tongues on the frame lugs with no cutouts. Seat post hole is 27.2. English threaded bottom bracket, with "T 1198" stamped underneath. No orginal components except maybe the Stronglight headset. Orange paint looks original.

Any thoughts? English or Dutch? Holdsworth? Circa 1970's?

juvela

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complete lack of braze-ons could place it back into the 1960's as well

if 1970's it is early in the decade

chainstays are rapier pattern (undimpled)

fork crown is Harrington

bottom bracket shell is BOCAMA Professional

possible you may discover additional marking(s) on steerer

others of far greater knowledge should be along shortly...

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jdawginsc 

Very unique barrel over barrel bridge.

juvela

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likely a Haden or such product - our framebuilder members are sure to know it

not especially rare on Brit products...


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jdawginsc 

My novice-ness shines through! I actually have never seen one of those, just the simple tube types.

juvela

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possible that the letter T in serial may be a helpful clue

note that serial limited to four digits

if from a large operation one would expect a longer number

letter T could indicate one of several makers in a given shop...

...or it could indicate the marque

there are not a great many Brit marques commencing with the letter T

two are -

a) Roy Thame, a marque associated with the Holdsworthy Co. Ltd.

Roy Thame main

b) The Thompson Bicycle Co. Ltd.

The Thompson Bicycle Company

this second is an individual artisan house - probably the better bet of the two

any readers familiar with them?


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unworthy1

IMO not a Holdsworth/Holdsworthy. And don't know who used such a brake bridge but that seems like a "tell".
If I had nothing else to work with I might have guessed "Falcon" but...don't put much stock in that.
The seat cluster is also fairly unusual.

Paintking

Thanks for the great feedback and insights. The Prugnat lug id seems particularly spot on.

Fyi nothing on the fork steer tube. Although the orange paint extends up it, so assuming this is the original paint. Nice to see the headset is in good shape with very little wear. 26 loose ball bearings per cup!

I took a hard look at this Holdsworth page, W. F. Holdsworth (nkilgariff.com). Great info! So its pretty clear my bike is not a Holdsworth, but it does help place the bike in age and quality of build. Certainly supports Juvela's suggestion on no later than early 70's, and probably late 60's. The quality lugs, tubes, and build suggests to me this was a moderate to upper quality/cost build, but without any fancy bits like extra lug shaping. Maybe a serious touring bike?

The Holdsworth page helps me consider build as well. I'm generally an 80's bike guy, but I've got a smattering of 60's and 70's parts. Weirdly I gathered some apparently era correct parts in the same shop where I acquired the bike: 3TTT stem with Fiamme bars and Mafac brake levers, Suntour bar end shifters (ratcheting!) and Campy record high flange hub wheels with Weinman 27" rims (is 27" correct for English bikes at this time?). Also a pretty nice Sugino crank, a Campy clone. Starting to think the shop disassembled the bike to get at some specific parts then tossed everything else in the spare parts sale area. Not ready to search out high end parts yet, but heading towards an Italian and mostly Campy build.

Paintking

Forgot to mention the Regina Extra Oro freewheel, five speed, something like 14-32!

Paintking

Forgot to add the frame dimensions for my mystery bike, 49 x 57 c-t-c.

On a recent thread about Holdsworth, Frames and Framebuilding (1970-1979) HOLDSWORTHY, Ltd
repechage said "I found the Holdsworth bikes kept a long top tube in the smaller sizes, 21" and under were very oversquare"

1989Pre

Could you show the rear dropouts? That brake bridge reinforcement should help identify this frame.

Paintking

1989Pre, thanks for asking:

juvela

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chainstay stop is Freres Huret item Ref. 194



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brake bridge an off-the-shelf item and most likely of little help identifying maker
have seen it on other cycles but have not been able to identify it as to manufacture from catalogues (thus far!)
could come from someone such as Cyclo
one of our framebuilder members is sure to recognise it...

pattern was already "old school" by time of frame's fabrication

its employment by maker likely a case of "using up what was in the bin"

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lug pattern is BOCAMA Competition 70's series

it may be the Competition 76 with the two "bumps" on the feature cut taken down to flatness

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the FIAMME bar you found at the bike shop is an excellent find. they are quite rare. there was a period during the 1960's when the company offered both stems and bars; then the products seemed to disappear.

here is the companion stem -






fortunately both FIAMME and 3TTT employ the 26.0mm clamp size

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forum member MauriceMoss may be able to offer some solid ID information on his next pass through

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if frameset remains unidentified you could join the Veteran Cycle Club and post it there; would probably generate helpful information in no time

https://v-cc.org.uk/

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see nothing on frame to suggest a possible low countries origin

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Paintking

Great info Juvela! Quite the eye to ID that Huret cable guide. And I love that Fiamme stem. Maybe I'll find one someday.

I'd really discounted the bits and pieces on the frame, so catching the Huret cable guide suggests I should reconsider. Heres a couple more pieces for the puzzle:

REG top tube cable guides


Suntour downtube cable guide


Sugino bottom bracket


A brand mix of parts, but all generally from the mid 70's or older I think. Could be original build.

Paintking

And Juvela's comment about the Fiamme bars reinforces my idea that the extra parts I picked up from the same shop really could be from the frame. I visit the shop regularly for old parts, but they rarely have decent parts of this age.

What I picked up, ostensibly to build up this orange mystery frame:

Fiamme bars


3TTT Record stem


Mafac brake levers


Sugino crank


Wheels with Campy Record hubs, Regina Extra Oro freewheel, and Weinmann 27 inch rims




And last but not least Suntour barend shifters

juvela

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have never learned a start/stop date for the FIAMME stem and bar stock

know only that the products were current in the 1960's

put a FIAMME stem on one of my Cinelli machines just for fun since one would understandably expect a Cinelli to be fitted with Cino stem & bar parts

the 3TTT Record stem you located is first generation and launched 1971; it was revised for 1974

replacement transfers for it are available from replica providers

the MAEDA (Suntour) cable guide is "early" as it is open; the stops on this design have a tendency to bend with use so it was revised in the mid-seventies to make the stops socket shaped for strength

here is the later type -

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you might wish to check width of bottom bracket shell. it may be slightly less than it nominal 68mm as you appear to have about one and one half threads showing on the adjustable bottom bracket cup. or it could be that the assembler employed a spindle intended for a 70mm shell because that's what they had to hand...
the centre section of the spindle is likely to be marked either MC68 or MC70

the wheels' Weinmann rims would have been produced at their facility in Belgium

the REG cable clips come from a firm called Rampinelli. the REG comes from the initials of the founder as written in the Italian manner of last name first followed by first and then middle names. he is Eugenio Gamma Rampinelli, also the maker of Cobra brand bicycle tools and ROTO brand cycle components, accessories and frame parts.

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/REG-Roto.htm

sounds like you are enjoying lots of good fun with this.

looks like cycle fitted out at one point with bits from a jumble sale. jumble sale cycles can be fun.


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Paintking

Just to confirm, the "extra" bits I picked up were on the bike, although that doesn't mean they were necessarily original build: bars, stem, wheels, freewheel, shifters and crank. Apparently it had some other Campy parts that were already sold, like derailleurs.