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Question from tandem-ignorant member

Old 02-06-23, 08:12 PM
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Question from tandem-ignorant member

This Gitane tandem may be about to fall into my lap, and I need to decide whether to step out of the way before it does. My ignorance of tandems is almost total, but I note that this one has a curved seat tube for the stoker. I would guess that this is to shorten the wheelbase somewhat while still leaving enough space for the stoker to squeeze in. Is that the case? And does that suggest that this is a racer-ish model, as opposed to one oriented more toward general recreation riding or possibly light touring?
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Old 02-06-23, 08:26 PM
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I don't have any experience with that particular model but I wouldn't call that a racing model. Note the light and generator brackets. One thing to note on older tandems like this is that the stoker's top tube is often quite short, making for very cramped quarters between the stoker's seat and handlebars. I strongly suggest your stoker try it out before adopting this one.
@bulgie is our resident tandem expert par excellence. Hopefully he will impart his wisdom here.
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Old 02-06-23, 08:28 PM
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That is not the tandem you want.

If you buy a tandem, buy a decent one.
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Old 02-06-23, 08:31 PM
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Stoker needs a lumbar support and a headrest. A minifridge and cocktail holder would put 'er over the top.

Fortunately, that's for someone considerably taller than I - although I doubt I'd be tempted even if appropriately scaled-down.
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Old 02-06-23, 08:56 PM
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That looks like plenty of room to me, rack and dynamo mounts may indicate touring but despite or with the short couple, the French have a long tradition of combining multiple disciplines which they excelled at so this may be a later production effort to keep them going.

Brevets, Paris brest Paris, Concours de machines, Audax, etc.

I have several tandem frames now, none my size but if yours turned up here I would be all over it, I think its fantastic.

And still holding out for a Paramount tandem but they seem to be scarce in lady back medium and XL captain.
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Old 02-06-23, 10:21 PM
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I know this is C&V but I'd shoot for something a bit more modern. A Burley, Trek, Cannondale, Raleigh, Kuwahara, maybe one of the less-expensive Santana models, can often be found pretty cheap. Sometimes after the owners gave up on selling it for their original inflated opinion of what it's worth. Tandems are hard to sell, and often go for less than the value of the parts.

My main complaint about this one is the shallow seat tube angle, which combines with the short rear TT to put the handlebars very close to the pedals. Not a dimension we're used to thinking about, but in the extreme like this, it become a problem because the stoker cannot stand, ever, because her knees will be hitting the handlebar. Or if they clear a little, you still can't stand when the handlebars are that close to your knees. You can't get your center of gravity over the pedals. Maybe that'd be acceptable to someone who never ever pedals standing, but the back seat of a tandem is less comfortable than a single, so standing now and then to get some blood flowing "down there" becomes more important. The shallow STA means more of your weight is on the saddle; even hard pedaling doesn't reduce the weight on the saddle much. Hard to unweight for bumps too.

Secondary complaints include the woefully undersized tubing, both heavy and flexible. Even single bikes don't use 1" TT much these days, so why should a tandem ever be 1" there? 1" steerer too, or actually probably 25 mm (French), ick. Hey, I like my French bikes, but a French tandem should have an "OS" 28 mm steerer — and lots of them do, such as Lejeune, Follis, Motobecane and Peugeot (some models/years, not all of course). Forks with the 28 mm steerer almost always have oversized tandem blades too.

Tandems take up a lot of room, so you won't want to store it if it doesn't get used. Maybe worth a try — hey, who knows, you might like it. But then if you don't, you'll have a tough time re-homing it. Oh I guess you could saw the frame up into small enough pieces to go in your garbage can, and have a set of decent parts. The TA cranks and Mafac brakes alone might make it worth your while. Are those Phil hubs by any chance? Nice upgrade if so. Hopefully not 27", ick.

Sorry to be so negative, but I've been through this a lot of times. The number of happy stokers on these curved seattube bikes that I've known is, um, I might still be waiting to meet the first one.

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Old 02-06-23, 10:29 PM
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Example:
Early Santana, top of the line at the time, fillet brazed, moderately OS tubing, TA, Mafac, Phil, Duopar, Arai drum brake... $350. What??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115494651415
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Old 02-06-23, 11:52 PM
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That frame design might give the stoker more room but you'd be better heeding the advice of those telling you to find a more modern bike. There are plenty out there at ridiculously low (for a good tandem) prices. We had a similar bike that I upgraded, including adding an SR seatpost from the dawn of the MTB days. It was fun-ish but newer tandems are better.
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Old 02-07-23, 12:22 AM
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^ bulgie ebay outed: You probably can fill more about Santana but that is a smoking deal. For that little money? If the captain can straddle, good for most. Swap both stems, bars, saddles per need. The stoker is always perched and doesn't straddle at stop. That build appears mostly stock original. Arai drag brake is good for 100,000 miles. MAFAC Criterium brakeset with dual cable lever.

Both Bill and Jan McCready have done more for bringing back the tandem and at a premium serious product.

Before that, few manufacturers of tandems offered anything but a Main street parade bike. Of course there's a handful of names whom offered the quality and more thought out configured tandems, but Santana certainly deserves credit in dedicated marketing, the return to quality and serious tandem.

It was shared by Jan the above early model with that Ishiwata 022 shaped and size tubing, boom tube, was a financial limb for them as it was a commitment for that proprietary spec. Hired brazers weren't easily let off to just start building frames until really proving their work. Before founding Salsa, Ross Shafer had his time at Santana.

Back to that model on ebay. I think early on was named the Marathon but had to quickly be washed and hushed, never to refer for it might infringe on the Marathon album of Carlos Santana. Also note the font and headtube art. I forget who designed that for them, but it has the right vibe.

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Old 02-07-23, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Example:
Early Santana, top of the line at the time, fillet brazed, moderately OS tubing, TA, Mafac, Phil, Duopar, Arai drum brake... $350. What??
https://www.ebay.com/itm/115494651415
Wow, if that were anywhere near me........
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Old 02-07-23, 06:49 AM
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Having ridden an Arriva *Santana" for 30 plus years, I can support suggestions for tandems being great, and good tandems Like Santana or Burley or . . . being better. I've always heard the ones like depicted by the OP were twitchy and just didn't have the structural pizzazz for all that weight of two riders.
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Old 02-07-23, 06:54 AM
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If the price is right (ie, as close to free as possible...) and you've got the space for it, I would absolutely get it. The perfect tandem? Almost certainly not, but it's cool looking, it's French... I would not be able to resist! OK, the one thing that might cause me to resist is if the wheels are 27" and the cantis don't have enough travel to accommodate 700c.

Thus far I've only been able to get my stoker to go on short rides to the coffee shop or the local farm brewery, but I really enjoyed 'renovating' it and I'm hoping for some longer rides in the future.


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Old 02-07-23, 07:00 AM
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we love our Gitane, but compared with something more modern (we also have a CoMotion), it’s unsettlingly flexy. Takes some getting used to.
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Old 02-07-23, 07:18 AM
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Jon, the triple crankset should be under the stoker's position. I've never seen one under the captain's position, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.
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Old 02-07-23, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
Jon, the triple crankset should be under the stoker's position. I've never seen one under the captain's position, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.
Not common, but in my researching vintage tandems last summer as I was re-habbing my Peugeot I did see them set up like this now and then. No idea what the reasoning is, though, other than making it easier for the captain to see/hear the FD for shifting/trimming...
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Old 02-07-23, 07:30 AM
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The two challenges to a tandem for me would be #1 , getting my wife, or anyone else to partner up - I would probably have to let her captain and #2 - figuring out how to size one for the both of us.

At any rate, if you’re serious about shopping for tandems, here’s a nice looking Burley that has been languishing on my CL for a while, just outside Richmond.

https://charlottesville.craigslist.o...574497679.html


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Old 02-07-23, 08:46 AM
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Thanks for the good and thoughtful answers. It does not surprise me to learn that this is not the tandem of anyone's dreams. The frame is no doubt whippy and underbuilt. But the thing is, I wasn't looking for a tandem in the first place. Although I have not yet examined the bike itself, it seems to me that the wheels, crank, brakes and brake levers alone are worth more than the $50 asking price. (Whether or not I actually need those parts, of course, is another question.) And I thought it might be mildly entertaining to jaunt around on the local rail trail a bit just to see what riding a tandem is like. Maybe that's a bad idea--this one is such a bad fit that it will poison my stoker's mind against tandems forever. Sigh.
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Old 02-07-23, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ehcoplex
If the price is right (ie, as close to free as possible...) and you've got the space for it, I would absolutely get it. The perfect tandem? Almost certainly not, but it's cool looking, it's French... I would not be able to resist! OK, the one thing that might cause me to resist is if the wheels are 27" and the cantis don't have enough travel to accommodate 700c.

Thus far I've only been able to get my stoker to go on short rides to the coffee shop or the local farm brewery, but I really enjoyed 'renovating' it and I'm hoping for some longer rides in the future.


Twins! We have also not fully embraced the tandem life. I thought it would be a solution to us riding at different paces. Since she got a decent road bike to replace her hybrid, she prefers to ride solo.


1980 Peugeot tandem
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Old 02-07-23, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
Jon, the triple crankset should be under the stoker's position. I've never seen one under the captain's position, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet.
Front drive was preferred by classic constructeurs like Herse and Singer. Main advantages are increased chain life (chain bushes only wear when touching a sprocket, which they do less than half as often) and no chainline issues when cross-chaining. Chainline becomes a non-issue since it's the angle that the chain cares about, not the actual lateral displacement. Singer in particular used that fact to put 4 rings up front for a super wide range, which is possible but impractical when the crank is in the rear (or on a single bike). On a front-driver, there's no downside to a quad. Also with front drive you don't need the indent in the right side chainstay for chainring clearance. Oh and one minor advantage has been mentioned, that cap'n can see and hear the front shifting and any rubbing.

Downsides are mostly the extra weight of that much chain, and sometimes the rear derailer needs help keeping that chain tight enough to not sag too much or flip around. Not all rear mechs can handle it well. The old Cyclo that attached to a chainstay braze-on was perfect for that because it's spring was like a screendoor spring stretching forward under the chainstay, and you could easily just swap in a stronger spring of the same length.

Affect on Q-factor (aka tread): Stoker's crank needs to be wide on the right, so the chain doesn't hit the right crank. Basically a triple spindle even though there's no chainring on that crank The cap'n cranks can be narrower, since the limit to Q in the rear is tire/chainring clearance for the chainstays and we have removed those constraints, plus chainline doesn't matter anymore, so whatever the narrowest spindle is for your cranks will probably work fine.

Modern builders have almost 100% dropped the idea. Not sure which downside most affected that collective decision; probably fashion had a large part in that. Of the "real" (non-fashion) reasons I'd say the main one is the need to use certain derailers that have adjustable spring tension. Less of a problem for a C&V fan since there were several to choose from BITD. Now, I don't know, I don't play with modern derailers at all but I assume they are not adjustable, is that right?

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Old 02-07-23, 02:02 PM
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Hey for 50 bucks, its a couple of Saturdays entertainment and a test for justifying a real tandem investment. The secret is to have a spouse that has the same leg length as you and to respond attentively to directions from the back seat. Its like having an RV -- you have to like the person you are traveling with. Some of us are lucky in that regard. Buy the damned tandem and trade up if it works out.
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Old 02-07-23, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Spaghetti Legs
The two challenges to a tandem for me would be #1 , getting my wife, or anyone else to partner up - I would probably have to let her captain and #2 - figuring out how to size one for the both of us.

At any rate, if you’re serious about shopping for tandems, here’s a nice looking Burley that has been languishing on my CL for a while, just outside Richmond.

https://charlottesville.craigslist.o...574497679.html


Going to show this one to my wife.
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Old 02-07-23, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Peruano
Hey for 50 bucks, its a couple of Saturdays entertainment and a test for justifying a real tandem investment. The secret is to have a spouse that has the same leg length as you and to respond attentively to directions from the back seat. Its like having an RV -- you have to like the person you are traveling with. Some of us are lucky in that regard. Buy the damned tandem and trade up if it works out.
I'd just add to this that a comfy, possibly sprung saddle for the stoker is a good idea- they can't really see the road ahead, and try as you might as captain to let the stoker know there's a bump coming up, you won't always see it in time/remember to say something..... and they really feel it!
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Old 02-08-23, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Front drive was preferred by classic constructeurs like Herse and Singer. Main advantages are increased chain life (chain bushes only wear when touching a sprocket, which they do less than half as often) and no chainline issues when cross-chaining. Chainline becomes a non-issue since it's the angle that the chain cares about, not the actual lateral displacement. Singer in particular used that fact to put 4 rings up front for a super wide range, which is possible but impractical when the crank is in the rear (or on a single bike). On a front-driver, there's no downside to a quad. Also with front drive you don't need the indent in the right side chainstay for chainring clearance. Oh and one minor advantage has been mentioned, that cap'n can see and hear the front shifting and any rubbing.

Downsides are mostly the extra weight of that much chain, and sometimes the rear derailer needs help keeping that chain tight enough to not sag too much or flip around. Not all rear mechs can handle it well. The old Cyclo that attached to a chainstay braze-on was perfect for that because it's spring was like a screendoor spring stretching forward under the chainstay, and you could easily just swap in a stronger spring of the same length.

Affect on Q-factor (aka tread): Stoker's crank needs to be wide on the right, so the chain doesn't hit the right crank. Basically a triple spindle even though there's no chainring on that crank The cap'n cranks can be narrower, since the limit to Q in the rear is tire/chainring clearance for the chainstays and we have removed those constraints, plus chainline doesn't matter anymore, so whatever the narrowest spindle is for your cranks will probably work fine.

Modern builders have almost 100% dropped the idea. Not sure which downside most affected that collective decision; probably fashion had a large part in that. Of the "real" (non-fashion) reasons I'd say the main one is the need to use certain derailers that have adjustable spring tension. Less of a problem for a C&V fan since there were several to choose from BITD. Now, I don't know, I don't play with modern derailers at all but I assume they are not adjustable, is that right?

Mark B
A wealth of information, per usual! Having the FD in the captain's position makes a lot of sense to me- my stoker is not really (yet) a regular cyclist, and I'm having to try to train her to give feedback on trimming the FD on our tandem as I find it hard to hear if the chain is rubbing.
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Old 02-08-23, 06:09 AM
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On the other hand, how many chains are linked together to span from the front chain rings to the back?

My stoker doesn't give me FD info either. I have learned to look when it is questionable.

I think it would not be hard to swap the cranks, depending on compatibility between the spindles.in terms of length.
@bulgie - Please comment on the "down tube" that spans the head tube to the rear DO. It looks to me like it would provide significant stiffness compared to not having one or even like the Peugeot where it terminates at the rear BB. I have a Burley Duet which is the same design as the one shown above.
1994 Burley Duet in the raw on Flickr
P1010345 on Flickr
P1010350 on Flickr
P1010016 on Flickr

The boom tube is quite large being open at the rear allowing for cables to exit to the Atom and RD.
P1010048 on Flickr

Burleys design look very cost effective but how good is it compared to other designs? Interesting mix of tig and brazing on the frame. The one thing I don't like is the rear BB design which is nearly unserviceable without special tools. The upside is that it shouldn't need servicing very often.
P1010047 on Flickr

The tubes at the front BB do not have openings, allowing for water collection.
P1010046 by Patrick Boulden, on Flickr
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Last edited by SJX426; 02-08-23 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 02-08-23, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
I know this is C&V but I'd shoot for something a bit more modern. A Burley, Trek, Cannondale, Raleigh, Kuwahara, maybe one of the less-expensive Santana models, can often be found pretty cheap. Sometimes after the owners gave up on selling it for their original inflated opinion of what it's worth. Tandems are hard to sell, and often go for less than the value of the parts.

My main complaint about this one is the shallow seat tube angle, which combines with the short rear TT to put the handlebars very close to the pedals. Not a dimension we're used to thinking about, but in the extreme like this, it become a problem because the stoker cannot stand, ever, because her knees will be hitting the handlebar. Or if they clear a little, you still can't stand when the handlebars are that close to your knees. You can't get your center of gravity over the pedals. Maybe that'd be acceptable to someone who never ever pedals standing, but the back seat of a tandem is less comfortable than a single, so standing now and then to get some blood flowing "down there" becomes more important. The shallow STA means more of your weight is on the saddle; even hard pedaling doesn't reduce the weight on the saddle much. Hard to unweight for bumps too.

Sorry to be so negative, but I've been through this a lot of times. The number of happy stokers on these curved seattube bikes that I've known is, um, I might still be waiting to meet the first one.

Mark B
This is partially why I'm thinking about selling my Colin Laing curved-tube. Stoker can stand only with great care and effort, even though she's about as small a stoker as fits on the frame and her bars are as far forward as possible. I don't even know if I'd get what it's worth for it. Could be a bit of an albatross even with the artisan builder cachet.

Front drive was preferred by classic constructeurs like Herse and Singer. Main advantages are increased chain life (chain bushes only wear when touching a sprocket, which they do less than half as often) and no chainline issues when cross-chaining. Chainline becomes a non-issue since it's the angle that the chain cares about, not the actual lateral displacement. Singer in particular used that fact to put 4 rings up front for a super wide range, which is possible but impractical when the crank is in the rear (or on a single bike). On a front-driver, there's no downside to a quad. Also with front drive you don't need the indent in the right side chainstay for chainring clearance. Oh and one minor advantage has been mentioned, that cap'n can see and hear the front shifting and any rubbing.

Downsides are mostly the extra weight of that much chain, and sometimes the rear derailer needs help keeping that chain tight enough to not sag too much or flip around. Not all rear mechs can handle it well. The old Cyclo that attached to a chainstay braze-on was perfect for that because it's spring was like a screendoor spring stretching forward under the chainstay, and you could easily just swap in a stronger spring of the same length.

Modern builders have almost 100% dropped the idea. Not sure which downside most affected that collective decision; probably fashion had a large part in that. Of the "real" (non-fashion) reasons I'd say the main one is the need to use certain derailers that have adjustable spring tension. Less of a problem for a C&V fan since there were several to choose from BITD. Now, I don't know, I don't play with modern derailers at all but I assume they are not adjustable, is that right?
I love front-drive on my tandems for the reasons you describe. The M952 XTR derailleur is fine for it, because it has a couple spring positions you can put the cage on if you dare to disassemble the thing. I would like to try a modern MTB derailleur, with the "clutch" that stops the chain from slapping and sucking. I wonder if these would be even better in this application. For the Le Cyclo, I've mostly just seen two original Le Cyclo springs ganged up together and used "in tandem". Ha. Ha.
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