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1969 Raleigh Competition Grail?

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1969 Raleigh Competition Grail?

Old 03-13-23, 04:18 AM
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1969 Raleigh Competition Grail?

I'm recently real interested in a nice, old, supple laid-back frame like the 1969 Raleigh Comp, probably to make it into a single freewheel or
maybe fixed or flipflop bike. I think that bike was only on Raleigh's books for a few years. I tried to buy one in 1969 (17 th birthday present!)
but they were impossible to find after a little while, and then I never saw them again. I wanted one of them or a PX-10, and I ended up with
a Cicli Rossignoli, a very wonderful alternative that just happened to be in Turin's store stock, and sold me on tubulars.

There have been numerous other Raleigh's with the name Competition. The 1969 one had a definite French slant, but I think it was a
Nottingham frame and later ones had clear Asian leanings, not that either approach is bad.

So question to any Competition enthusiasts:

How do the later bikes called Competition, Competition II, Competition GS or other derivative names, compare in geometry, ride and handling to
the 1969 version?
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Old 03-21-23, 07:55 AM
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I had a '69 Competition. It was definitely a laid back, long wheelbase type of bike. Big swooping fork that absorbed road shock. Pencil thin tapered seat stays. Low bottom bracket. Very traditional english sport bike.

Thru about 1973 the competition stayed with similar geometry. From '74 on the angles got steeper and turned more toward race geometry.
In 1980 I started the year racing on that bike. Was in Madison, Wi racing around the capitol and struck a pedal in a corner. Went down and bent the top tube.
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Old 03-21-23, 08:30 AM
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OK , lets try this again (stinking BF dumped me yet again!!!) . The earlier Competitions are quite a bit different than the later "GS" versions . I have owned a 1977 for about 8 years and love it . It is not laid back , fairly tight geometry and thats what I like about it. Mine came to me almost NOS so it is original except I changed out the RD after a cage failure on the Camp. GS . I switched to a Camp. NR unit.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by big chainring View Post
I had a '69 Competition. It was definitely a laid back, long wheelbase type of bike. Big swooping fork that absorbed road shock. Pencil thin tapered seat stays. Low bottom bracket. Very traditional english sport bike.

Thru about 1973 the competition stayed with similar geometry. From '74 on the angles got steeper and turned more toward race geometry.
In 1980 I started the year racing on that bike. Was in Madison, Wi racing around the capitol and struck a pedal in a corner. Went down and bent the top tube.
There are other Raleighs from this period of 69-74 that probably had similar if not identical geometry to the Comps. I am by no means an expert, but I suspect the Professional, Super Tourer, and Internationals all had about the same geo. Might be easier to find what you want if you have a broader search.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:08 AM
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I’d probably settle on either an International or an early 70s competition if I couldn’t find a 69 Competition. As far as I can tell the International is the same frame as the 69 Comp but with Campy dropouts. I’ve got a 75 International and a somewhat smaller 73 International at my shop. The 73 has just slightly longer stays and a little better tire clearance in the rear. I also recently parted with a 75 Competition which again had a similar laidback long wheelbase feel. Any of these are perfect for a laidback ride. The earlier into the 70s you can get, the better for what your describing you’d like.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:19 AM
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I have a 73 competition and it is indeed laid back. I have an early professional 72 ish and it is decidedly more sporting. The competition is all day comfort.
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Old 03-21-23, 10:01 AM
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I have a 1972 Competition (24-1/2"/ 62 cm) that I ride regularly, with pleasure! According to the decals, it's got double-butted "frame tubes" and fork blades that are Reynolds 531, but not the stays, and weighs (3200 g bare) just a bit less than a 63 cm Peugeot PX-10 frame from the same year. Angles are 72.5 for seat tube, and 72 for head tube, and chain stays are 44.5 cm. I've noticed one example of 1973 Competition that has the full complement of butted tubes, based on its decals. As others have said, the Competitions (probably all higher-end Raleighs) got sportier in terms of geometry during the mid-70s -- I would fully expect that a frame from 1969 would be similarly rather relaxed in angles, with long chain stays, and that the tubeset would also be main frame tubes butted.

Having had a couple bikes that were in the Competition lineage, and done a bit of research, I think that any Raleigh branded Competition until the mid-'80s can be presumed to have been constructed in Nottingham rather than in Japan. They switched the "Competition" moniker to Japanese manufacture in about 1984, maybe 1983, and those are identifiable because they have different decal set, and easily recognizable differences in the heron head badge; a lot of those were sold by Raleigh USA. In England, they continued to produce a similar bike labeled variously Road Ace, or Gran Course I think (I'm sure of the latter, because I owned one, a "very sporty" criterium geometry with short stays and 531C tubeset).

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Old 03-21-23, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Pcampeau View Post
As far as I can tell the International is the same frame as the 69 Comp but with Campy dropouts.
My 69 Competition has Campy dropouts. I tend to think of it as a Mark 0 International. The International first appears in the Raleigh catalogs (in the U.S. at least) in 1970, looking pretty much identical (in frame details) to the Competition in 1969, most notably with the chrome Nervex lugs. They even both share a catalog page with the Professional.

1969



1970


The International got a nice upgrade in components.
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Old 03-21-23, 12:57 PM
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Mk I Professional, Competitions up until 1977. Internationals, Gran(d) Sport(s) and Super Courses all had rather laid-back geometry, generous clearance for wider 700c tires (even if they came with 27" wheels, the brakes permitted changing sizes) and 531 tubing (main triangle only in Super Courses). This near-decade of bicycles is my personal favorite. I have seven, plus a couple of the less-laid-back models of the 1970s. It's a very versatile template.
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Old 03-21-23, 01:26 PM
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1977 Competition GS


1978 Professional Mark V
Like the Competition , the Professional changed quite a bit in the latter part of the seventies with the Mark V . I just built a 1978 model and the tire clearances are pretty tight and the cut out lugs , no chrome on the fork tips or chain stays , no fast back seat stays , are different than previous Pro's. Some say that they were the best of the Raleigh Pro's but I would have no idea at all. Mine rides very nicely and I love it but it's the only one I've owned. There is no way to fit a Mark V with 27" wheels , don't ask me how I know!

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Old 03-24-23, 06:54 AM
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Since the OP is talking about building up a Raleigh Competition, here's my cue to show what that can look like -


1973 Raleigh Competition, 531 with rapid-taper stays, running Dingle fixed cog/Dos Eno 2-speed freewheel, giving 70-in fixed pavement, 60-in fixed gravel, 60-in general freewheeling and 51-in light singletrack gearing

Mine is a '73 with Carlton Capella lugs and sloppy lug and finish work. Built during the nadir of Raleigh craftsmanship - and that said, it's kinda like my Gitane TdF, almost like Raleigh went French and built their bikes to ride, not to look at. The Competitions built with sloping fork crowns and rapid taper seat stays probably have THE widest clearance of any of the 531 Carlton-built Raleighs. It's always risky to generalize with Raleigh, but fwiw, here's the geometry on mine - 59 cm c-t x 57 cm c-c; 44cm chainstays; 41.5-in/105 cm wheelbase; 2.5-in fork rake; 73 x 73 angles; 41mm trail. The tires are nominal 35mm Continental Cyclocross Speeds bought on clearance - they actually measure out to just under 34 mm. I might be able to run 38s, but there would be minimal clearance between the chainstays for not much gain, I think.

I built this one because I missed the battered '71 Competition I found as a frameset with some parts in a trash pile at the road side and built up as fixed-gear. Had I known then what I know now, I would not have ordered my custom Mercian road fixed-gear, but would have instead sent that old Raleigh off for bottle bosses, dent repair and paint. A little less tire clearance, but nice Nervex Professional lugs, and just a cool vibe to it!

If you're really curious, here's the build thread, and here's a flickr page about the bike.

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Old 03-25-23, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pcampeau View Post
I’d probably settle on either an International or an early 70s competition if I couldn’t find a 69 Competition. As far as I can tell the International is the same frame as the 69 Comp but with Campy dropouts. I’ve got a 75 International and a somewhat smaller 73 International at my shop. The 73 has just slightly longer stays and a little better tire clearance in the rear. I also recently parted with a 75 Competition which again had a similar laidback long wheelbase feel. Any of these are perfect for a laidback ride. The earlier into the 70s you can get, the better for what your describing you’d like.
An International would be fine with me, too. As I recall the Inters were all 531 DB, Campy dropouts all around, and different lugs from some of the Competitions. Except for the earliest Professionals, I recall them as more pure road racing bikes. Another in my geometry sweet spot is the early Super Course, at least, I have a 72 or 73 at home waiting for a good repair person to "volunteer." But even then this Super Course is decalled as 531 plain gauge main tubes. Friends and shop folks back in the day said they were stiff and ungainly. I had previously owned a lower Falcon with that same tubing sticker, and it was stiff and ungainly. But again "however," Reynolds had .9 mm plain, .8 mm olain, and .7 mm plain available to tubing customers, and we do not know what they used for those frames. A 27.2 mm seat pillar suggests a 0.7 mm wall thickness in the seat tube, but does that say anything about the rest of the tubes? As far as a supple ride I'd want to know what the wall thicknesses are in the DT and TT.

FWIW, I would be most interested in a 52 or 53 cm c-c seat tube length, as a sizing point.
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Old 03-25-23, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Mk I Professional, Competitions up until 1977. Internationals, Gran(d) Sport(s) and Super Courses all had rather laid-back geometry, generous clearance for wider 700c tires (even if they came with 27" wheels, the brakes permitted changing sizes) . . .
I'm going to demur with respect to USAZorro 's "generous clearance" statement. In my experience, the '70s Raleighs are not particularly generous, especially those with the "rapid taper" chain stays. A 1974 International example has 34 mm clearance between them at 700c radius, the 1972 Competition I'm riding has barely enough to fit a 35 mm tire. The rapidity of the taper helps a bit, if you can go to 650b, but not for 700c. For tires wider than that (I realize Road Fan is talking about a single-speed) I'd look at a Motobécane or a Peugeot (which have indented chain stays), and as far as English bikes go, one really has to get one from the '50s or '60s to get more space between the chain stays -- I would say that the British "went skinny" with the tires right along with the Italians. It's a real shame, in retrospect, at least for those of us who are drinking the wider, more comfortable tire Kool Aid -- leaves a lot of nice frames behind (for those who still like the narrow tires).

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Old 03-26-23, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
I'm going to demur with respect to USAZorro 's "generous clearance" statement. In my experience, the '70s Raleighs are not particularly generous, especially those with the "rapid taper" chain stays. A 1974 International example has 34 mm clearance between them at 700c radius, the 1972 Competition I'm riding has barely enough to fit a 35 mm tire. The rapidity of the taper helps a bit, if you can go to 650b, but not for 700c. For tires wider than that (I realize Road Fan is talking about a single-speed) I'd look at a Motobécane or a Peugeot (which have indented chain stays), and as far as English bikes go, one really has to get one from the '50s or '60s to get more space between the chain stays -- I would say that the British "went skinny" with the tires right along with the Italians. It's a real shame, in retrospect, at least for those of us who are drinking the wider, more comfortable tire Kool Aid -- leaves a lot of nice frames behind (for those who still like the narrow tires).
Perhaps you're thinking of MK II - IV Professionals and the 1973 RRA? Those certainly do have tight clearance. Perhaps our definitions of "Generous" aren't the same? I'd say 35 is quite generous for something that was marketed as an option for racing.

1974 International with 35mm tires.



1971 Competition with rapid taper stays - equipped with 28mm tires and plenty of room for up to 35mm. I wouldn't push it beyond 35, but that wouldn't be at all problematic. On my 1972 Competition of the same 21-1/2" size, clearance was marginally tighter, but I did size it for 35s. However, I opted to Gugify it with 650b, as I wanted those beautiful red hetres in 42 on it. I'm relatively confident that a 1969 Competition is closer to the geometry and clearance of the 1971 version than the 1972 version.


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Old 03-26-23, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Perhaps you're thinking of MK II - IV Professionals and the 1973 RRA? Those certainly do have tight clearance. Perhaps our definitions of "Generous" aren't the same? I'd say 35 is quite generous for something that was marketed as an option for racing.

1974 International with 35mm tires.



1971 Competition with rapid taper stays - equipped with 28mm tires and plenty of room for up to 35mm. I wouldn't push it beyond 35, but that wouldn't be at all problematic. On my 1972 Competition of the same 21-1/2" size, clearance was marginally tighter, but I did size it for 35s. However, I opted to Gugify it with 650b, as I wanted those beautiful red hetres in 42 on it. I'm relatively confident that a 1969 Competition is closer to the geometry and clearance of the 1971 version than the 1972 version.


All I can say are two things. First, I'm strangely not thinking of going with wide tires just because its a single.

Second to Zorro: That International looks to me my size! Please put me on the list for when you need to move it! But please lets talk about dimensions, I don't want too many surprises.
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Old 04-03-23, 09:21 AM
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Every time I see an International in my size with the wraparound stays, I talk myself out of it because my '71 Professional Mk III provides sufficient clearance, has eyelets, and has a more sane fork rake, not to mention nicer lugwork. I have three '74 Pros and one has different geometry, with a slightly longer top tube and a shorter rake fork than the other two or any other Mk IV I have seen. Go figure. I liked the Competition, especially the ones that came with Huret Jubile shifters, but never really felt the desire to own one. I think if I stumbled across the right frame, I'd snag it and build it up as a 650B conversion.
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Old 04-03-23, 11:58 PM
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Was the 1977 Competition GS what Hennie Kuiper rode to win the Tour de France? Was it a silver one or a black one? Thanks!
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Old 04-04-23, 03:19 AM
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Since the OP mentioned single speed, these might fit the bill, a Grand Sports full butted 531 that I converted to a single speed with 27"x 1 3/8 Sand canyon tires and

a 73 Super Course that I converted to Double dingle speed (both fixed and freewheel 17x21 2 speed with 45x42 front chainrings) with some Panasonic tour 700c x 38 tires.

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Old 04-04-23, 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
My 69 Competition has Campy dropouts. I tend to think of it as a Mark 0 International. The International first appears in the Raleigh catalogs (in the U.S. at least) in 1970, looking pretty much identical (in frame details) to the Competition in 1969, most notably with the chrome Nervex lugs. They even both share a catalog page with the Professional.

1969



1970


The International got a nice upgrade in components.
Apropos of nothing, I got married across the street from this grist mill (the Martha Mary Chapel) and had my wedding pictures taken there. Small world!
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