View Poll Results: Which would you rather have?
1957 Cinelli SC
36
49.32%
1977 Cinelli SC
37
50.68%
Voters: 73. You may not vote on this poll
What would you rather have?
03-24-23, 05:44 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by JulesCW
I only saw this today -- been out of town for a bit. I was going to answer the '57, as I've got a basement full of nice 70's and '80s bikes and they're of the era I grew up in, and it would be really neat to have at least one bike from the 50s or before that fit well and that i could ride.
35+ years ago I had a 1930s Schwinn road frame with some bits -- and de-accessioned it prior to a life-changing move across the country. Although I do not at all regret the move, I do regret getting rid of that bike -- never did build it up, but I imagine it would have been be fun to ride...
Someday something like it or your hypothetical '57 Cinelli might surface in my jumbo (65c+ cm) size... if it does I'll be ready!
35+ years ago I had a 1930s Schwinn road frame with some bits -- and de-accessioned it prior to a life-changing move across the country. Although I do not at all regret the move, I do regret getting rid of that bike -- never did build it up, but I imagine it would have been be fun to ride...
Someday something like it or your hypothetical '57 Cinelli might surface in my jumbo (65c+ cm) size... if it does I'll be ready!
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03-24-23, 05:53 PM
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Both Cinelli please- Vintage and classic lightweights are ridiculously bargain buys today. Grab and hold.
Mid finger to the banksters, but thanks to BTC you can have all the cake and eat it too.
Skip the '23 Trek Madone for $14k and mom's new kitchen for now. Be patient and she'll get her kitchen for free.
Ps. Ever wonder why the classic sports car market is red hot and its not slowing down? Doesn't matter of original or retro upgrade. This new seven litre is for its twin. Ciao
Mid finger to the banksters, but thanks to BTC you can have all the cake and eat it too.
Skip the '23 Trek Madone for $14k and mom's new kitchen for now. Be patient and she'll get her kitchen for free.
Ps. Ever wonder why the classic sports car market is red hot and its not slowing down? Doesn't matter of original or retro upgrade. This new seven litre is for its twin. Ciao
03-24-23, 06:00 PM
#53
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"Ooh, it's from the '50's! Fra-gee-lay! Hang that delicate fa-bridge-ay egg behind a glass case!
Oh, cottered cranks! Those pins are impossible to figure out! How do they work? Is it magic? Voo-doo? Must be! It's too haaarrd!
Gran Sport? But, but, but the internet told me it was ugly and didn't work!
I can't put regular grease in those hubs. They must require some special bygone formula of secret Italian bikey wonder grease.Unobtanium!"
Gimme the '57. Or the '77, but I voted '57. Both awesome. I ride a '51 Raleigh. It rides great. It's a bike, not the Magna Carta. Geez.
Oh, cottered cranks! Those pins are impossible to figure out! How do they work? Is it magic? Voo-doo? Must be! It's too haaarrd!
Gran Sport? But, but, but the internet told me it was ugly and didn't work!
I can't put regular grease in those hubs. They must require some special bygone formula of secret Italian bikey wonder grease.Unobtanium!"
Gimme the '57. Or the '77, but I voted '57. Both awesome. I ride a '51 Raleigh. It rides great. It's a bike, not the Magna Carta. Geez.
03-24-23, 06:03 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by merziac
Well maybe its just my perception but we see a lot of hand wringing, pushback and consternation whenever somebody brings up cotters, many steel components and fussy oldschool components.
Many here won't go near the damn things from what I see.
Many here won't go near the damn things from what I see.
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03-24-23, 07:49 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by smontanaro
have plenty of cotterless crank bits
See what I'm doing here? All tech has their headaches. Don't get me wrong, proper bits are definitely more difficult to locate, but an open C lever works the exact same way a closed C does. A parallel o gram is a parallel o gram. It ain't magic.
03-24-23, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro
I can understand the reticence. If the bike is complete and requires no immediate maintenance, no big deal. I'm in the midst of putting together a mid-50s Automoto sort of "from scratch." I have the Stein cotter press, so no hammering was required, but getting a workable combination of crank, spindle and cotters took several tries. I didn't have a stash of parts to raid. I have plenty of cotterless crank bits — going that route would have been simple, but "inauthentic." Where's the fun in that?
Once I got the crank for the 58 Paramount, I used what ever I could get to work for the BB, later Stronglight cups with who knows what spindle.
I chased a couple of correct ones but they were $100's to far for my comfort so I gave up and called it good while still looking a bit from time to time.
03-24-23, 08:17 PM
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Hunh. I’d have picked the 57, especially having been exposed to your tastes.
Heck, I rode 50’s bikes. ‘Course, that was back in the 50’s, when they were new…
Heck, I rode 50’s bikes. ‘Course, that was back in the 50’s, when they were new…
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03-24-23, 08:41 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by rccardr
Hunh. I’d have picked the 57, especially having been exposed to your tastes.
Heck, I rode 50’s bikes. ‘Course, that was back in the 50’s, when they were new…
Heck, I rode 50’s bikes. ‘Course, that was back in the 50’s, when they were new…
03-24-23, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by iab
The one with the 23.877656, 23.78865434 or 23.37664785698 extractor? How stripped are the threads?
See what I'm doing here? All tech has their headaches. Don't get me wrong, proper bits are definitely more difficult to locate, but an open C lever works the exact same way a closed C does. A parallel o gram is a parallel o gram. It ain't magic.
See what I'm doing here? All tech has their headaches. Don't get me wrong, proper bits are definitely more difficult to locate, but an open C lever works the exact same way a closed C does. A parallel o gram is a parallel o gram. It ain't magic.
TELL US WHICH BIKE YOU BOUGHT and I’ll nudge my neighbor to sell his parts! BTW, I hope that you bought the 70s bike bc those frames are the apogee of bikes.
03-24-23, 09:32 PM
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Vintage Italian FREJUS BIKE Campagnolo 2 levers 50s 60s steel frame bike | eBay
I think you're not going old-fashioned enough for the price point. I'd take the Frejus.
I think you're not going old-fashioned enough for the price point. I'd take the Frejus.
03-25-23, 12:03 AM
#62
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Originally Posted by iab
Since SurferRosa was entirely a tool, I bet you stood in line telling everyone Darth Vader is Luke's father, I'll come clean.
C&V frequently gets a, let's bash modern stuff, thread. No need for clicky-e-gears, batteries suck, real men take their hands off the bars, steel is real, and so on. My hypnosis is people are comfortable with the tech they know. So while 1977 tech is fully known by C&V because that was their youth, hell yes, they would ride that bike. Go back 20 years, that stuff isn't well known and less desirable. Poll results confirm and while the written replies skew 1957, it seems those would have the 57 as a wall hanger than a ridden bike like the 77. So for me, it is no surprise why most regular people don't drink the C&V Kool-Aid, and neither do the people of C&V.
So new question, why is the 57 a wall hanger and the 77 a rider?
C&V frequently gets a, let's bash modern stuff, thread. No need for clicky-e-gears, batteries suck, real men take their hands off the bars, steel is real, and so on. My hypnosis is people are comfortable with the tech they know. So while 1977 tech is fully known by C&V because that was their youth, hell yes, they would ride that bike. Go back 20 years, that stuff isn't well known and less desirable. Poll results confirm and while the written replies skew 1957, it seems those would have the 57 as a wall hanger than a ridden bike like the 77. So for me, it is no surprise why most regular people don't drink the C&V Kool-Aid, and neither do the people of C&V.
So new question, why is the 57 a wall hanger and the 77 a rider?
Originally Posted by iab
This is what confuses me. I'm no more adept at anything than others. Hubs are hubs. Ball bearings are ball bears. ETC, etc. The biggest difference between the 57 and 77 are the cottered cranks. Which even in 77 were common on low-end bikes. There is no additional upkeep of a 57 over the 77, physically. There is definitely a perception it's different, and perception is reality.
In truth, my choice of the 1957 over the 1977 was based almost entirely on the frames, more specifically the frame geometry. With either the 1957 or the 1977, I would almost certainly swap out the components for things that would allow me to enjoy riding the bike where I live (hills feature prominently). I don't do wall hangers - nothing wrong with them, and I love bike porn and looking at my bikes and the Eroica concours, it's just that I like to play with my toys. And playing with my toys means have lower gearing (and better braking) than a lot of the older components can provide. Older frames? Love 'em and ride 'em. Older components? Most of the time, I say "no, thank you"; I prefer riding newer components, specifically Campy 10sp triple. The exception is Eroica (and Cino if I eve get there). Then it's about the gathering of the tribe and the cosplay, and I am more than happy to play along.
This is just me riding what makes me smile. I think everybody should ride what makes them smile. I am quite willing to accept that the two sets may have little or no overlap. I'll do me, you do you, and maybe we can get a beer and geek out over each other's bikes together.
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03-25-23, 12:36 AM
#63
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Originally Posted by merziac
Tired old guys tired of tired old bikes. 
Younger guys are what it takes to keep some of this going, old stubbornness can only take you so far with rapidly diminishing returns as both body and mind proceed to betray you down the road, resistance quickly becomes futile and can often accelerate the process in the moment and beyond.
Younger guys are what it takes to keep some of this going, old stubbornness can only take you so far with rapidly diminishing returns as both body and mind proceed to betray you down the road, resistance quickly becomes futile and can often accelerate the process in the moment and beyond.
The '57 appeals to me on the rarity, specialness, and age. I'd certainly ride it, or purchase it for riding. The '77 is as noted, much more standardized and representative of the vintage race bike proportion and aesthetic. I don't think anyone made a ~65cm bike in '57, certainly not in racing form. '77 much more so, but for road/racing, likely special order.
My answer: Cinelli Laser.
Ok ok, I'm showing my age. '77 it is. I already have (very nice) touring bikes, and my Schwinn Voyageur SP has a 72° HT angle and 45cm stays like the '57.
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03-25-23, 02:07 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
Speaking strictly for me, the biggest component difference is the gearing and, and unless the brakes are Mafacs, the braking. You can get significantly lower gears with a 1977 drivetrain that with a 1957 drivetrain - not low enough for a slug like me, but lower. And as a big boy, I need brakes that at least pretend to stop you. 1977 era Campy side pulls were no better at stopping you than Mafacs, but they were much better than Universal 51s. (I will say that the cottered cranks are a turn-off; riding them is fine, but I never ever want to work on one again. And I even have a tool for removing and installing the cotters.)
In truth, my choice of the 1957 over the 1977 was based almost entirely on the frames, more specifically the frame geometry. With either the 1957 or the 1977, I would almost certainly swap out the components for things that would allow me to enjoy riding the bike where I live (hills feature prominently). I don't do wall hangers - nothing wrong with them, and I love bike porn and looking at my bikes and the Eroica concours, it's just that I like to play with my toys. And playing with my toys means have lower gearing (and better braking) than a lot of the older components can provide. Older frames? Love 'em and ride 'em. Older components? Most of the time, I say "no, thank you"; I prefer riding newer components, specifically Campy 10sp triple. The exception is Eroica (and Cino if I eve get there). Then it's about the gathering of the tribe and the cosplay, and I am more than happy to play along.
This is just me riding what makes me smile. I think everybody should ride what makes them smile. I am quite willing to accept that the two sets may have little or no overlap. I'll do me, you do you, and maybe we can get a beer and geek out over each other's bikes together.
In truth, my choice of the 1957 over the 1977 was based almost entirely on the frames, more specifically the frame geometry. With either the 1957 or the 1977, I would almost certainly swap out the components for things that would allow me to enjoy riding the bike where I live (hills feature prominently). I don't do wall hangers - nothing wrong with them, and I love bike porn and looking at my bikes and the Eroica concours, it's just that I like to play with my toys. And playing with my toys means have lower gearing (and better braking) than a lot of the older components can provide. Older frames? Love 'em and ride 'em. Older components? Most of the time, I say "no, thank you"; I prefer riding newer components, specifically Campy 10sp triple. The exception is Eroica (and Cino if I eve get there). Then it's about the gathering of the tribe and the cosplay, and I am more than happy to play along.
This is just me riding what makes me smile. I think everybody should ride what makes them smile. I am quite willing to accept that the two sets may have little or no overlap. I'll do me, you do you, and maybe we can get a beer and geek out over each other's bikes together.
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03-25-23, 06:46 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988
Vintage Italian FREJUS BIKE Campagnolo 2 levers 50s 60s steel frame bike | eBay
I think you're not going old-fashioned enough for the price point. I'd take the Frejus.
I think you're not going old-fashioned enough for the price point. I'd take the Frejus.
Frejus 01 by iabisdb, on Flickr
BtB 12 by iabisdb, on Flickr
03-25-23, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by iab
I got that too. But I wanted to compare apples to apples in this thread. And for the record, you can ride it too.
03-26-23, 02:01 AM
#67
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1977 for me because more racing proven geometry
03-26-23, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by machinist42
1957 - Birth Year Bike..
Originally Posted by iab
Since SurferRosa was entirely a tool, I bet you stood in line telling everyone Darth Vader is Luke's father, I'll come clean.
03-26-23, 06:34 AM
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I would certainly grab both, voted for the 77. But had the other been a 1958 (year I graduated H.S.) would have been no contest. Don
03-26-23, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Relevant.
03-26-23, 08:02 AM
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The funny thing is that for me, craftsmanship matters far more than frame make. If I had mad money to spend on a frame, I'd much rather support an active or at least not so recently retired frame builder. Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I helped run a college jewelry studio. What I love about classically designed steel frames is closely related to my love of the workmanship. I don't have a fetish for any particular brand. I just want to see beauty in the work. I think there are more than a few European, Japanese, and certainly US builders who would check those boxes more resolutely.
03-26-23, 08:34 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
I'd think pretty hard and then choose the '57 because because of the 1950s version of "racing geometry," so it has longer chain stays, longer wheelbase and slightly slacker angles than the shorter, more upright geometry of the 1970s. It would probably be a flatland-only bike; there is no way a Campy Gran Sport derailleurs and a Magistroni crank will give me the kind of gearing I need to get my carcass up the hills around here, but it would cool as hell for shortish rides to a coffee shop. If ithe Universal Extra brakes are the center-pulls that are similar t the later 61s, they would be okay. If they were the sidepulls (and therefore Univerrsal 51sm which will stop you in a week and a half), I would find a way to make Mafacs fit on it instead, which might be a challenge thanks to that weird Italian fixation of the period with short-reach front brakes and long-reach rear brakes.
I'll be interested to see why iab is asking.
I'll be interested to see why iab is asking.
My Mondonicos pretty well represent the '70s and '80s prevailing geometries and I can make them work, but I also have a 1952 Rudge time trialling bike, and I'm busting to get it done because of my age - nearing 70 this year!
The following is hypothetical, but plausible. In the '50s and well-before, Velocio and other early French randonneurs set up their bikes with a rear sprocket or sprockets, and a forty-something big chainring paired with a 20-something bailout, perhaps depending on a suicide shifter in the front. (There are photos of these bikes). Since the French Alps are not more "tame" than the Italian, at least from my limited Midwestern perspective, I'd be really surprised if (the hypothetical part!) innovative Italian cyclists did not set up the "dentist bikes" of the day in a similar fashion. The great British time trialists of the day seemed to do the 900 miles using the gearings of the narrow-spread or medium spread 3 and 4 speed Sturmey-Archer hubs (or other multigear systems) of the day: the equivalent of AM or FM hubs, for example. If he had them, Hannibal would have geared down his Cinelli mounts to get his armies to Britain.
Last edited by Road Fan; 03-26-23 at 08:55 AM.
03-26-23, 08:47 AM
#73
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The 1977 is near the end prior to significant change. But, the geometry already had evolved, I might even call it two generations from the 1957.
the '57 will be longer, front center and chainstays. Angles a bit more slack.
Now, I have a approx early 70's SC so I don't need sportier. Nice bike but not one of the Top Ten.
as you have a Model B, just keep that and get the '78 to have the eras covered, assuming you have that young one also.
the '57 will be longer, front center and chainstays. Angles a bit more slack.
Now, I have a approx early 70's SC so I don't need sportier. Nice bike but not one of the Top Ten.
as you have a Model B, just keep that and get the '78 to have the eras covered, assuming you have that young one also.
03-26-23, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by georges1
1977 for me because more racing proven geometry
03-31-23, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bikingshearer
I'd think pretty hard and then choose the '57 because because of the 1950s version of "racing geometry," so it has longer chain stays, longer wheelbase and slightly slacker angles than the shorter, more upright geometry of the 1970s. It would probably be a flatland-only bike; there is no way a Campy Gran Sport derailleurs and a Magistroni crank will give me the kind of gearing I need to get my carcass up the hills around here, but it would cool as hell for shortish rides to a coffee shop. If ithe Universal Extra brakes are the center-pulls that are similar t the later 61s, they would be okay. If they were the sidepulls (and therefore Univerrsal 51sm which will stop you in a week and a half), I would find a way to make Mafacs fit on it instead, which might be a challenge thanks to that weird Italian fixation of the period with short-reach front brakes and long-reach rear brakes.
I'll be interested to see why iab is asking.
I'll be interested to see why iab is asking.
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