Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

The bike Charles built

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

The bike Charles built

Old 05-30-23, 12:59 PM
  #1  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
The bike Charles built

You know how it is, just looking at eBay, not going to buy anything, and you notice a bike 20 mins away, no bids yet…..I mean, she knows I’m a hoarder, and she still loves me, it is a medical condition, I just have to find a Latin name for it……I digress. The advert said;

“It belonged to my brother in law who is now in a home with Dementia.He loved all things French and it has French alloy wheel hubs and aluminium rims. He was in the British Army cycling team back in the fifties so was a real enthusiast. The frame was fully reconditioned and the document is shown in one of the photos.”

Terrible thing dementia. I was kinda sad to buy something that was so loved but now unable to be used, still It comes to us all I suppose, don’t waste a single day of your life not touching a bike!




So, a quick clean. No measurements yet, hope to do tomorrow. What caught my eye was Nervex professional lugs, Suntour dropouts, a receipt for work done, showing repaint, braze ons added-makes it pre 1980 I find, Normandy hubs dated 1978, GB brakes 1950-60s, new parts and work done 2003. I dont believe the Reynolds Millenium 531 sticker. It feels about the right weight for a 531 frame, but is older than 2000.

All the nuts and bolts are free, it all works and you can see that Charles lived with this bike over the years, and rather than sell it and buy a new one, repaired and maintained it. I like that. That is something missing today. So tell me what bike you think Charles started with. The bottom bracket had a serial number under a cable guide, even though it has guides on the top of the bottom bracket.










awac is offline  
Old 05-30-23, 01:02 PM
  #2  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts

awac is offline  
Old 05-30-23, 01:05 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Posts: 1,378

Bikes: a couple

Liked 872 Times in 458 Posts
Dementia is a terrible thing
Dad had it. When he woke I'd always ask what he dreamed about.
That helped a little but it is what it is and there is no cure.

The memories live on with the bike, enjoy.
Schweinhund is offline  
Likes For Schweinhund:
Old 05-30-23, 01:12 PM
  #4  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by Schweinhund
Dementia is a terrible thing
Dad had it. When he woke I'd always ask what he dreamed about.
That helped a little but it is what it is and there is no cure.

The memories live on with the bike, enjoy.
I have an Auntie with onset dementia and my Uncle is caring for her, he is 85 and will not let anyone take over. The thing in the UK is that dementia gets no financial help, you have to sell your home etc to pay for assisted living. That makes a difficult time even more difficult.
awac is offline  
Likes For awac:
Old 05-30-23, 02:09 PM
  #5  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts

A more clear photo, someone obviously had a late night before coming to work, 6 oh dam, 7….


Last edited by awac; 05-31-23 at 04:17 PM.
awac is offline  
Old 05-30-23, 02:21 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,343
Liked 2,866 Times in 2,020 Posts
Quite possible the Suntour ends are replacements.

interesting bike
repechage is offline  
Likes For repechage:
Old 05-30-23, 03:18 PM
  #7  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage
Quite possible the Suntour ends are replacements.

interesting bike
I had that thought as well! Good to hear someone else throwing that in. Motobecane used suntour and Nervex professional on the Grand Jubilee and Record. The seat stays on the rear triangle looked a little short, they normally curve around the top tube a little more on Motos. I need to measure the tubes to see if metric or imperial.
awac is offline  
Old 05-30-23, 08:52 PM
  #8  
Disraeli Gears
 
Charles Wahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,094
Liked 370 Times in 215 Posts
My guess is that it's a Raleigh, based on the serial number, the style of seat stay terminals at saddle, slack angles of HT and ST, bend of the fork -- just looks like a Raleigh to me. 1970s Raleighs would have serials beginning with W followed by a second letter for week-of-year (B = 2nd) followed by a series of numbers, first of which is the last digit of the year. That would make it a 1977 serial. Can't explain why it would have SunTour dropouts but Nervex Pro lugs with a flat-topped fork crown, which make it seem both later and earlier than 1977 for a Raleigh, respectively. I could be wrong about this, though the brazed-on top of BB cable guides are a good indicator of mid- to late-70s manufacture.

Now, you have an obligation to enjoy it, right?
Charles Wahl is offline  
Likes For Charles Wahl:
Old 05-30-23, 09:22 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
gaucho777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 7,322

Bikes: '72 Cilo Pacer, '72 Gitane Gran Tourisme, '72 Peugeot PX10, '73 Speedwell Ti, '74 Peugeot UE-8, '75 Peugeot PR-10L, '80 Colnago Super, '85 De Rosa Pro, '86 Look Equipe 753, '86 Look KG86, '89 Parkpre Team, '90 Parkpre Team MTB, '90 Merlin

Liked 2,396 Times in 601 Posts
gaucho777 is offline  
Old 05-30-23, 09:26 PM
  #10  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: North Seattle
Posts: 392

Bikes: Davidson ’81

Liked 236 Times in 124 Posts
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
I could be wrong about this, though the brazed-on top of BB cable guides are a good indicator of mid- to late-70s manufacture.
cable guides were added in 2003 per the top receipt
C9H13N is offline  
Likes For C9H13N:
Old 05-31-23, 03:08 AM
  #11  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
My guess is that it's a Raleigh, based on the serial number, the style of seat stay terminals at saddle, slack angles of HT and ST, bend of the fork -- just looks like a Raleigh to me. 1970s Raleighs would have serials beginning with W followed by a second letter for week-of-year (B = 2nd) followed by a series of numbers, first of which is the last digit of the year. That would make it a 1977 serial. Can't explain why it would have SunTour dropouts but Nervex Pro lugs with a flat-topped fork crown, which make it seem both later and earlier than 1977 for a Raleigh, respectively. I could be wrong about this, though the brazed-on top of BB cable guides are a good indicator of mid- to late-70s manufacture.

Now, you have an obligation to enjoy it, right?
Thank you Charles.
I think you are bang on. Worksop 1977, February.
Suntour? Repaired frame? I will strip and measure frames and threads at a later date to see if I can find anything else.

I had a Peugeot for my birthday that year, which was far to big and heavy for me, put me off Peugeots for a long time! Lol.
Funny, I have never had a a Raleigh, (my first serious bike was a Royal Enfield, I loved that bike!) but a quick spin around the block had me quite taken with it. I will enjoy it.

Loved your write up with reference to ‘Saturday Night and Sunday Morning’, great film. https://www.disraeligears.co.uk/site...railleurs.html


First letter - production factory:
N=Nottingham
W=Worksop (1967-1980), Nottingham after 1981, following closure of Worksop factory. Discontinued in 1990.
E=Enid (USA)
G=Gazelle
M=Malaysia
R=Canada
D=Ireland
H=Handsworth (U.K.)
S=Unknown, but in existence
B=Unknown, but reported
Second letter - approximate month of frame manufacture:
Jan=A
Feb=B/C
Mar=D
Apr=E/F
May=G
Jun=H/I/J
Jul=K
Aug=L
Sep=M
Oct=N/O
Nov=P/Q/R
Dec=S
First numeral (third digit in sequence):
Year of manufacture;
"3" = 1973, "4" = 1974, "5" = 1975, "6" = 1976, etc.

taken from https://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_ralei....html#19731982
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 04:27 AM
  #12  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
My guess is that it's a Raleigh, based on the serial number, the style of seat stay terminals at saddle, slack angles of HT and ST, bend of the fork -- just looks like a Raleigh to me. 1970s Raleighs would have serials beginning with W followed by a second letter for week-of-year (B = 2nd) followed by a series of numbers, first of which is the last digit of the year. That would make it a 1977 serial. Can't explain why it would have SunTour dropouts but Nervex Pro lugs with a flat-topped fork crown, which make it seem both later and earlier than 1977 for a Raleigh, respectively. I could be wrong about this, though the brazed-on top of BB cable guides are a good indicator of mid- to late-70s manufacture.

Now, you have an obligation to enjoy it, right?
Did Carlton start with the same designation?
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 04:41 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,746

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Liked 1,666 Times in 795 Posts
Originally Posted by awac
Is that a tandem hub (threaded for a drum)? Or repurposed flip-flop?
ehcoplex is offline  
Likes For ehcoplex:
Old 05-31-23, 06:52 AM
  #14  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts


Repurposed flip flop I think. I got a bag of bits, and it had a no name rear axle, so I think he was planning on replacing it. I have just built a set of Normandy competitions for my 1977 C4, they are on sew ups and 28”. These are 27”, I will dig through my parts bin and see what I have to suit.
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 07:11 AM
  #15  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts

Seat post

Top tube

Down tube

Head tube

Seat tube

Quill stem

All with trusty old GDR dial calliper, amazing what you find…I need to pull the seat post out and measure.

Last edited by awac; 05-31-23 at 07:14 AM.
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 07:49 AM
  #16  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts

Seat tube

Seat post

Seat tube

I had to go and measure, because I just thought, what if the seat post was stuck………you know the feeling when it will not budge……
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 12:09 PM
  #17  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts

Dating Carltons ? Frame Numbers ? Carlton Cycles

For reference.
awac is offline  
Old 05-31-23, 05:34 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
VintageSteelEU's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: London
Posts: 564

Bikes: Motobecane C41, Matsu$hita Nashonaru

Liked 439 Times in 253 Posts
Originally Posted by repechage
Quite possible the Suntour ends are replacements.

interesting bike
Not a specialist, I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but not necessarily replacements (especially they are not on the list of modifications). There were some Motobecane models using Suntour dropouts (in 1976? Other years?). It seems they were using any possible dropouts on various models. Campagnolo, Huret, Simplex, Gipiemme, Suntour... And it didn't seem to depend on the tier of the bicycle. I've seen Grand Record with Simplex dropouts (and Huret or Campagnolo dropouts), I have C5 with Huret dropouts. So it seems sometimes a fairly random choice. I'm sure there was a reason for that. And probably all of these manufacturers were making equally good dropouts. If the frame originally didn't have brake cable guides on the top tube (as it seems), that probaby puts it in mid-70's. It nearly definitely is not Grand Record (not enough offsett in the fork, IMO) and I haven't seen top tier Motobecane (Team Champion / C5, Le Champion / C4) using Suntour dropouts, so I would guess it's a 1975 / 1976 Grand Jubile. It's a shame it's been powder coated, original colour mix could have been great looking red with black accents. I'm guessing the previous owner got an incomplete frame which required repainting and decided to do some modifications at the time. Still a very nice frame. Components combo seems a bit strange, perhaps the previous owner had limited budget and used most of it on frame modification and poweder coating. Placement of the brake cable guides might make it difficult to use centre pull brake in the rear, which is a bit of a shame, because the brakes probably could use an upgrade.
VintageSteelEU is offline  
Likes For VintageSteelEU:
Old 05-31-23, 06:02 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Pcampeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 953

Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course, 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1960 Carlton Franco Suisse Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ

Liked 709 Times in 358 Posts
1977 should be (but yeah, Raleigh) too late for Nervex lugs throughout the Raleigh range but I agree the serial number looks like Worksop. It may be better to look at Carlton bikes that are not Raleighs. The serial number format is exactly the same.
Pcampeau is offline  
Likes For Pcampeau:
Old 05-31-23, 06:22 PM
  #20  
Bike Butcher of Portland
 
gugie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,746

Bikes: It's complicated.

Liked 6,055 Times in 2,363 Posts
BITD in Worksop, Nigel grabbed whatever bits the bins were filled with that morning. Dropouts and lugs varied from fortnight to fortnight. Trying to figure out meaning to the lugs and dropouts used on any given Raleigh model from the early to mid-70's is futile.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
gugie is offline  
Likes For gugie:
Old 05-31-23, 07:27 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Pcampeau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 953

Bikes: 1968 Raleigh Super Course, 1972 Raleigh Professional, 1975 Raleigh International, 1978 Raleigh Professional, 1985 Raleigh Prestige, 1972 Schwinn Paramount, 1980 Schwinn Voyageur 11.8, 1960 Carlton Franco Suisse Peugeot PX10, 1972 Motobecane Le Champ

Liked 709 Times in 358 Posts
Originally Posted by gugie
BITD in Worksop, Nigel grabbed whatever bits the bins were filled with that morning. Dropouts and lugs varied from fortnight to fortnight. Trying to figure out meaning to the lugs and dropouts used on any given Raleigh model from the early to mid-70's is futile.
What you say is true but I’ve been doing some research for the past little while and I think this Carlton Clubman from the 1977 Carlton brochure looks like a stronger candidate than any 1977 Raleigh.

It doesn’t say what the dropouts are so that could mean SunTour. The Pro MK V above it has Campagnolo dropouts listed and the adjusters are clearly depicted, so I’d say this Clubman could be the bike.
Pcampeau is offline  
Likes For Pcampeau:
Old 05-31-23, 09:13 PM
  #22  
Disraeli Gears
 
Charles Wahl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,094
Liked 370 Times in 215 Posts
Originally Posted by C9H13N
cable guides were added in 2003 per the top receipt
Since we're bein' picky, note that the cable guides were added to the TOP TUBE in 2003, not the BB.

I think that Pcampeau gets the "ding ding ding" on this one. I had no idea that Carlton-branded (without Raleigh on the downtube) were even being sold as late as 1977. What convinces me most is the reinforcing washer on the brake bridge, which few if any Raleighs would have had. Later British-made Raleighs (say, 1984 or 1985) did have Suntour GS dropouts, but those would have been available from sometime in the '70s, according to Velobase.com.

Sorry, VintageSteelEU , but someone whose avatar is a Motobécane headbadge has to be suspected of confirmation bias. I love Motos too, but the serial number is all but irrefutably a Worksop (later Nottingham) one. Plus, the seat stay caps aren't semi-wrap, and the Raleigh/Carlton build was always a bit more "rough and ready" than the slightly more refined Moto product.

Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-31-23 at 09:39 PM.
Charles Wahl is offline  
Likes For Charles Wahl:
Old 06-01-23, 02:36 AM
  #23  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
Wow, Wow, Wow. That’s why I love this forum. It is serious, thank you.
I, like Vintage Steel, thought it might be a Grand Jubilee, it is why I bought it sight unseen from eBay ( confirmation bias, yes, guilty! Lol). I saw in the advert Nervex pro and suntour drop outs. It had to be right? I also have a complete Shimano group set waiting for the right frame, lol! I couldn’t think of anyone else who used Suntour at this time.

Pcampeau, I think you are, as Charles puts it so well, ding,ding,ding! Thank you, I don’t know Raleigh & Carlton, I would have taken a long time to find that one! .
It also explains the colour. He has chosen something close to the Eau de Nil. Apparently he went everywhere on the bike so it might have got scratched and with the addition of lugs a repaint was in order, and when something has been with you for so long, you tend to want to keep everything the same…….

The seller is going to ask him about the bike the next time he visits to see if he has any memories.

It has been important to me for another reason. I am going to start in 3 weeks time an intensive 12 week period of treatment for throat cancer, and I shouldn’t be thinking of taking another project in, but in doing so I am giving myself something to plan after treatment has finished, a goal (she couldn't argue against this one, dirty I know, but remember the means justifies the extra bike….), prognosis is good (caught quite early) so no, not going to be selling cheap just yet!
Thanks everyone.
awac is offline  
Likes For awac:
Old 06-01-23, 02:53 AM
  #24  
Full Member
Thread Starter
 
awac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2022
Location: UK, New Forest
Posts: 291

Bikes: 1980 Gitane sprint,1977 Motobécane C4, 1977 Carlton Clubman, 1959 Claud Butler European

Liked 134 Times in 89 Posts
https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/...-model.349537/

Post I found surfing on the web, in it he mentions Suntour gt drop outs on a green Carlton. His only transport? Notice on the bill in the photo it has “Retrobike” written in the corner. Same bike?

If it helps I recall vividly it originally had Mafac centre pull brakes, Suntour Cyclone rear mech, Suntour Chainset, Suntour GT dropouts, GB extension, mudguard braze-ons and solid axle only wheels.”
awac is offline  
Likes For awac:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.