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How many of you question the cost of upgrading?

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How many of you question the cost of upgrading?

Old 09-28-23, 09:32 AM
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When I was younger and single and childless, I would indulge myself in all sorts of nice bling-y parts, as well as a couple of custom made-to-measure frames. The realities of being a father and the budget that comes with that closed out that part of my life, though. I was grateful that I was able to get most of my money out of the Rivendell and its lovely jewel-like bits, and I could justify the slightly less ostentatious but still lovely Mercian fixed-gear by riding it to work on a daily basis for several years.

I still have some bikes where the upgrades cost more than the bike's acquisition - but I keep the costs down sometimes through a rolling upgrades strategy, and the cosmetics of the upgrades matter less and less to me. I've gotten better at being patient and waiting for things to come along at a price I can manage.

Ten years ago I scored a deal on a '71 Gitane TdF frameset with headset and BB for $50. The first drag was that the seller dropped it off with a shop to ship it, and the shipping charges wound up being $100. Still, I had enough parts for a good start on the initial build. I scored a used IRO sealed bearing fixed/free hub on the 'Bay for $10 or so, re-used spokes from a wheel where the flange had failed to lace up a scavenged tubular rim, fitted used tubulars that had been given to me ... and I rode it like that for a while. Soon afterwards I upgraded to a Kogswell fixed-gear set of hubs laced to MA-3s by trading off a Shimano Nexus dynohub laced to an MA2, so, cost of shipping. A year later the Stronglight BB failed and I scored a used Phil Wood BB and mounted it with French rings from the parts stash, themselves eBay scores for cheap from years earlier. A few years later I replaced the early '70s Weinmann 500s from the stash with a pair of Weinmann Carreras that I snagged for $10 on the 'Bay. So, backtracking, a $50 frameset gets another $200 + - but spread out over time, and in conjuction with assorted scavenged parts that amortized over a couple of different bikes might add another $80 to the total.

The '73 Raleigh Competition was a $70 Craigslist find. The used Surly Dingle was $35; used Surly track hubs wound up being $50, I think; the Nervar Star cranks were $20, the 42T ring was another $10, and the 44T from French eBay was $40; $15 more for a damaged B17, and another $20 for some Brooks copper rivets for the repair; $37 for ACI/Alpina spokes from a UK seller, another $60 for a pair of CR-18s; used Velo Orange bars and a used Nitto Technomic were maybe another $60; Tektro levers another $20 or so; eventually a 20/22T Dos Eno freewheel at $90; and everything else was already in the bins, so a $70 bike with $457 in parts and bits over a year's time.

Most recently there was the Lighthouse, purchased as a bare frame and fork for $150 on this forum. The T.A. cranks w a 48t ring were free for postage thanks to a trade of an 8-speed Dura-Ace rear derailleur; the RX-100 calipers, shifters and rear derailleur and the mismatched Exage/Mavic front wheel and later Exage/Ukai rear were also free (dumpster find city bike fixed and sold for $40 paid for the too-small $40 1993 Bianchi Eros donor bike; the 110 mm Nitto Technomic stem was a straight trade for a 90 mm I had bought used ($30?) for a since-sold Allegro years ago; the 42 cm SR bars were a $20 eBay purchase a couple of years earlier; pedals were free from I bike I had just sold; the saddle was purchased new in 2000, and amortized over all the bikes it has graced is essentially free at this point; cables and housings were purchased from a friend's closed LBS, and along with the used 44T and 30T chainrings, Tange Levin headset, Stronglight BB (new and unused and sold cheap as unreturnable wrong-size purchase) and new KMC chain totaled $179.89. So - $150 frameset gets actual expenditure of roughly $230, not too bad.
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Old 09-28-23, 09:43 AM
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If I had more bikes it might be an issue, but I only have a couple and if you add or change things slowly enough you never have to consider the total cost.
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Old 09-28-23, 09:46 AM
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Oh dude, you need to put your wallet away and find a co-op.
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Old 09-28-23, 10:19 AM
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I justify it by telling myself that even if I paid a lot of money for a new bike, I would still start pouring money into modifications and upgrades. Itís just a big part of the fun for me, and I probably wouldnít recoup that money down the road either. So when you look at it that way, Iím taking the sensible approach by starting with someoneís castoff vintage bike. 😀
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Old 09-28-23, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
... the concepts of "money" and "art" are diametrically opposed. So with hand made bicycles, I tell myself I'm involved in art. Art is for connoisseurs. Money is about having enough so it lasts until you die, broke. I can still remember when there was a hipster ethos that valued "artisanal objects". I guess it wasn't that long ago, but it seems like forever.
Unless you get somebody like Shepard Fairey to paint your bike there is nothing artistic about what we do. Creative? Sure. Artisanal? Not by the definition of the word. Heck most art is in fact walking hand by hand with money :-\

I see myself as a craftsman, making functional objects.
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Old 09-28-23, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by abdon
Unless you get somebody like Shepard Fairey to paint your bike there is nothing artistic about what we do. Creative? Sure. Artisanal? Not by the definition of the word. Heck most art is in fact walking hand by hand with money :-\

I see myself as a craftsman, making functional objects.

....I paint, therefore I am. I would ask how a hand constructed steel frame is not artisanal, but it would be a rhetorical question.
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Old 09-28-23, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
....I paint, therefore I am. I would ask how a hand constructed steel frame is not artisanal, but it would be a rhetorical question.
Of course itís art. Art can be functional; not just something you hang on the wall.
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Old 09-28-23, 11:57 AM
  #33  
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Actually I have been fortunate enough to have an upside sell on two vintage bikes: A fabulous Cinelli from 1963 and a Wizard (built by Howard and Baylis). I bought both bikes "right" and before the bike upswing in prices, and when I found an interested buyer who really wanted the bikes, I sold them.

I think those days may be over now. However, I think we are missing a very important point in the discussion. And that is that we do what we choose to do - in this case ride a bike - and at least for me, the time I spend riding is the best part of my day. So things that bug me - a rubbing front derailleur, a rattle, out of true wheel, notchy head set - detract from the experience, so I try to fix them, so as to make the time on the bike as enjoyable as possible.

Not everybody is as fussy as me, and that may be a good thing. but if you want quality components that will "work good and last a long time", you will pay a premium for them. At least for me, it's worth it. The bike is a vehicle to an experience, it should almost disappear beneath the rider, not be a source of aggravation.

/markp


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Old 09-28-23, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Of course itís art. Art can be functional; not just something you hang on the wall.
...back in the 80's, when I was in grad school, and trying to get an MFA in glass/ceramics, this was a popular topic for debate. There were people back then who were sure. And I guess nothing has changed. It is kinda hurtful to hear that my paint schemes are inferior to whatsisname who did the Obama poster, though. I'm just too old and tired to push any kind of social media presence. Genius is never appreciated in its own place and time.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:14 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66
Oh dude, you need to put your wallet away and find a co-op.
- man, a co-op a few miles away would be nice....
there's one in Ann Arbor, about 20 miles away....open on Sundays from 11AM to 2PM or something. with very little floor space or selection so I hear.
then there's Back Alley Bikes in Detroit, about 25 miles away. If I could stand driving for 45 ~ 90 minutes to go in the evening that would be alright.... but that's a few hours of not bike and missed dinner with my wife.

so i watch the BF-C&V section; FB RacketPlace; rarely CL (a.k.a. kill me now dot com) ; and if I can't find something at RivBike, SomaFab, VeloOrange, or Universal Cycles, it's fleeBay! Sometimes I'll get it from my LBS, but it's always - ALWAYS - special order for him.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:15 PM
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My artist son is in his second year at Pratt, and only wants to create functional art.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
My artist son is in his second year at Pratt, and only wants to create functional art.
So he wants to be a craftsman. William Morris and Gustav Stickley would be proud.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by abdon
So he wants to be a craftsman. William Morris and Gustav Stickley would be proud.
No, he wants to be an artist. I think he knows what he wants to do better than you.
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Old 09-28-23, 12:43 PM
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this discussion brought to mind an old (apocryphal) story - attributed to the early days of the space program, Astronaut Alan Shepard who went on to walk on the moon

as he was getting strapped into the Mercury capsule, a reporter stuck a microphone in his face and asked him "Well, how do you feel ?"

to which CMDR Shepard replied "Buddy how would you feel if you were about to risk your life to this rocket with a million parts, all supplied by the lowest bidder?"

he had the reputation of being a smart a$$

/markp
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Old 09-28-23, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mpetry912
this discussion brought to mind an old (apocryphal) story - attributed to the early days of the space program, Astronaut Alan Shepard who went on to walk on the moon

as he was getting strapped into the Mercury capsule, a reporter stuck a microphone in his face and asked him "Well, how do you feel ?"

to which CMDR Shepard replied "Buddy how would you feel if you were about to risk your life to this rocket with a million parts, all supplied by the lowest bidder?"

he had the reputation of being a smart a$$

/markp
Back when the "greater good" trumped common sense every time, aside from that orders were orders.
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Old 09-28-23, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by smd4
No, he wants to be an artist. I think he knows what he wants to do better than you.
Weird. I thought you said he wanted to make functional objects.

I'm not dissing your kid. Look up the artistic pedigree of say William Morris, he was an artist but his functional creations were while he wore his craftsman hat. Rodin, a master craftsman in marble that created some of the world's finest art pieces.

The end purpose defines what hat you were wearing.
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Old 09-28-23, 01:05 PM
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I have questioned it every time I have done it. Now, at 71, I don't question it, I just don't do it.
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Old 09-28-23, 01:14 PM
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It amazes me how often I will see someone on an ill fitting bike, the reasons are many but it certainly becomes a chore rather than a pleasant experience I imagine.Most likely one of the main reasons the Norco was only ridden a few times by the previous owner. Of course a young person tends to have more than enough energy and flexibility to deal with it but at my age ( 67 ) every aspect of proper fit is important and even though it felt as though the Rene Herse tires were just a tad expensive, costing almost 100.00 more than the bike itself they are a large part of being comfortable and enabling one to ride further. Aesthetically having the handlebars higher than the seat takes away from the overall balanced look but it is something many of us end up doing as we grow older. .


If I end up with a front rack and most likely a Berthoud bag it tends to minimize higher handlebars to a degree - I find a bag of some sort a prerequisite when riding. I though about a Nitto rack but prices are up there so the V.O. offering is certainly good enough and reasonably priced.


One definite advantage of experience and having the knowledge is being able to quickly size up a bike purchase and having a good idea of what it will need in order to be just right for you. As it is the Norco would be a rather negative experience but realizing the potential I was willing to make the investment. Just finding a certain vintage bike in the right colour and in almost new condition is enough of a challenge. The 1970 Gitane TDF is a good example, it was listed on Facebook Marketplace for at least 4 months at 350.00 firm but knowing their rarity, especially in almost excellent condition, it was a bargain in my eyes and I had the parts ( a number of original parts had been replaced with period NOS Japanese components many year ago ) to make it a better rider and still retain the vintage aspect so it did not cost me much beyond the purchase price. In some other markets it might have sold quickly.


Speaking of aesthetics I was quite elated that the Gitane had the more gently curving forks as it was hit and miss with many having the straighter version. Not a big deal to many but I prefer the look which was the more the norm up into the 1960's, along with a longer wheelbase and slacker frame angles.







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Old 09-28-23, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by VintageRide
It amazes me how often I will see someone on an ill fitting bike,
Probably not as much as I cringe seeing a half deflated tire...
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Old 09-28-23, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by abdon
Weird. I thought you said he wanted to make functional objects.

I'm not dissing your kid. Look up the artistic pedigree of say William Morris, he was an artist but his functional creations were while he wore his craftsman hat. Rodin, a master craftsman in marble that created some of the world's finest art pieces.

The end purpose defines what hat you were wearing.
...I would pursue this further with you, but it's pretty obvious you've both made up your mind, and that you've done so based on a very single minded view of the differences and similarities between "art" and " craft". This is almost verbatim what some of the less informed opinions from the 1980's expressed.

"There are morethings in Heavenand Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." I don't doubt there are even TED talks on this topic, but I was completely exhausted by the conversation back in the 80's, and I haven't any enthusiasm to revisit it. Unless you are willing, like you seem to be, to adopt an overly simplified view of the topic, the differences quickly become subjective. Is a blown glass installation by Dale Chihuly art, or it is craft ? If it's art, who is the "artist" ? Is it Chihuly, who hasn't worked in a studio since he lost an eye many years ago, or is it the grad student minions who churn out the product ? It's like asking " "What's the difference between a duck ?"

Defining this by the end purpose is doubtless a mistake (IMO), but you are free to make it. I'm thinking of photographing some of my custom bikes, and selling them as NFT's. There's no argument at all about whether those are art.
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Old 09-28-23, 02:25 PM
  #46  
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Well I did it twice and never questionned myself, I will do it again with an hybrid bike that deserves than a 30 years old shimano altus transmission, I will uPgrade it to shimano XT 30 speeds and Vbrakes
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Old 09-28-23, 02:27 PM
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I always up grade this every winter and some of parts I replaced I like better than the new one. I guess its an addiction.
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Old 09-28-23, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I would pursue this further with you, but it's pretty obvious you've both made up your mind, and that you've done so based on a very single minded view of the differences and similarities between "art" and " craft". This is almost verbatim what some of the less informed opinions from the 1980's expressed.
Likewise.
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Old 09-28-23, 10:21 PM
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Norco Magnum Series

The Norco Magnum series are worth upgrading.
A little history.....
Canadian Norco dealer bike shops back in the 80's got the full lower line of Norcos and if they reached a certain sales level they could sell Norco's second line of Nishiki. The bigger shops could also eventually sell Norco's new third line of Fiori.
With the bike manufacturing boom many bike stores opted to sell a second line of bikes from a different supplier ( Apollo/Kuwahara, BRC etc) and the "Norco" bike company sold less upper end Nishiki than they thought they would. Their solution was to spec Nishiki level bikes as "Norco Magnum" series so smaller dealers had access to a higher level bikes from Norco.
The Norco Magnum Series is every bit as good as the Nishiki but the don't get the love because they wear the Norco badge.
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Old 09-29-23, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...I would pursue this further with you, but it's pretty obvious you've both made up your mind, and that you've done so based on a very single minded view of the differences and similarities between "art" and " craft". This is almost verbatim what some of the less informed opinions from the 1980's expressed.
As both an artist and a craftsman, I think I know of what I speak. Are you either?
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