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Moser Forma Atlanta96: any feedback?

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Moser Forma Atlanta96: any feedback?

Old 10-26-23, 06:13 AM
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Moser Forma Atlanta96: any feedback?

hi
I have no intention of buying it, because as a second bike I want to have something in titanium, which will either be a classic Litespeet (if I will ever find a frame), or a bike built around the handcraft titanium frame I was talking about in the other topic

I am just curious ...

A dude has a Moser Forma Atlanta96 for sale, in mint condition.
  • Frame, Dedacciai 25cr Mo4 steel, toptube=565mm (c/c), seattube=560mm (c/c)
  • derailluers, Ergopowers, and cranks, Campagnolo Mirage 8 speed, { 53/39, 13/26 }
  • brakes, Campagnolo Mirage
  • rims, Campagnolo Berlin 1936
  • tires, Hutchinson Equinox 700x23
  • stem, ITM 120mm
  • handelbars,ITM Super Europa 2
  • sadle, Selle Italia XO
pretty 90ish steel style!

... which to me, it sounds not too bad, definitely not entry level, not top range, but very interesting.


Does anyone have, or have had, this bike?
How comfortable was it for trips of 50Km to 200Km?

And what feedback can you give me?
What price can a bike like this have?

Last edited by DiTBho; 10-26-23 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 10-26-23, 08:35 AM
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Chemical composition of EN-10305-1 25CrMo4 steel
% MIn/MAX
C 0.22/0.29
Si <0.40
Mn 0.50/0.80
P <0.035
S <0.035
Cr 0.90/1.10
Mo 0.15/0.25
ni <0.01
Al <0.01
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Old 10-26-23, 08:38 AM
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attached the Dedaccia's datasheet
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
zero1.pdf (4.86 MB, 6 views)
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Old 10-26-23, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
Chemical composition of EN-10305-1 25CrMo4 steel
% MIn/MAX
C 0.22/0.29
Si <0.40
Mn 0.50/0.80
P <0.035
S <0.035
Cr 0.90/1.10
Mo 0.15/0.25
ni <0.01
Al <0.01
Typically, I prefer an Si content at >0.36 as it makes for a much smoother ride.
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Old 10-26-23, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat
Typically, I prefer an Si content at >0.36 as it makes for a much smoother ride.
So, I imagine this frame doesn't offer a smoother ride
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Old 10-26-23, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Erzulis Boat
Typically, I prefer an Si content at >0.36 as it makes for a much smoother ride.
But...0.40 would fall within your parameter?
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Old 10-26-23, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
Chemical composition of EN-10305-1 25CrMo4 steel
% MIn/MAX
C 0.22/0.29
Si <0.40
Mn 0.50/0.80
P <0.035
S <0.035
Cr 0.90/1.10
Mo 0.15/0.25
ni <0.01
Al <0.01
one could purchase it, cut it apart, strip the paint and any chroming and have it assayed.
‘it is steel, it is of a gauge.
‘the fabrication effort will make more of a difference beyond geometry.
assuming there was reasonable skill in the fabrication…

analogous to the Princess and the Pea.
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Old 10-26-23, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
analogous to the Princess and the Pea
I'm posting this because I don't have any feedback on the bicycle, so I'm trying to figure out what it might be like to ride.

Analogous to Jurassic Park: extract some info from bones and stones, recreate the rest virtually.
(by the way, we're kind of doing a similar thing for Nearthendal, but using protein imprinting)

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Old 10-26-23, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
I'm posting this because I have some feedback on the bicycle, so I'm trying to figure out what it might be like to ride.
I think repechage's point, should it be elusive, is this:

You're simply NOT GOING TO FEEL THE DIFFERENCEin how a bike rides whether it contains < 0.40% or > 0.36% Si--or probably any element!

Last edited by smd4; 10-26-23 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 10-26-23, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
Chemical composition of EN-10305-1 25CrMo4 steel
% MIn/MAX
C 0.22/0.29
Si <0.40
Mn 0.50/0.80
P <0.035
S <0.035
Cr 0.90/1.10
Mo 0.15/0.25
ni <0.01
Al <0.01
That probably won't tell you anything useful.
Anyways, 25CrMo4 is same as good ole 4130 Chrome Moly.
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Old 10-26-23, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4
I think repechage's point, should it be elusive, is this:
You're simply NOT GOING TO FEE THE DIFFERENCEin how a bike rides whether it contains < 0.40% or > 0.36% Si--or probably any element!
So, when you try to compare the Columbus with the Deda, commissioned by the Bianchi Reparto Corse or F.Moser Corse, and the technical data sheet only mentions that a variable { 1,2,3,4,5 } quantity addition were added to steel to their specifications
  • 1) chrome, to increase resistance
  • 2) manganese, to give hardness
  • 3) molybdenum, to reduce brittleness
  • 4) vanadium, to slow down aging
  • 5) niobium, to improve the mechanical characteristics
what can you conclude with this information?
that it was only marketing? O____o
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Old 10-26-23, 10:55 AM
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A similar point, appliedto modern carbon fiber frames, I can tell you by direct experience (I spent 5 months on both) that with the same geometry, I don't know what to add to carbon fibres, but on long distances (160Km), there is a huge difference between the frame of the Monza WR compared to a Pinarello Prince, the same fork, wheels, sprokes, rims, tires, saddle, and derailleurs.

I am perplexed about this, and in this case the recipe is an industrial secret, like the formula for Coca Cola
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Old 10-26-23, 10:57 AM
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I conclude that less than .5% Si will result in you feeling NOTHING as far as the frame riding characteristics.

What do you think a frame with less than .5% Si will feel like, compared to another frame with less than .5% Si?
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Old 10-26-23, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
  • 1) chrome, to increase resistance
  • 2) manganese, to give hardness
  • 3) molybdenum, to reduce brittleness
  • 4) vanadium, to slow down aging
  • 5) niobium, to improve the mechanical characteristics
Can you define any of these terms? "Aging?" "Mechanical Characteristics?" "Resistance?" To what??
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Old 10-26-23, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
That probably won't tell you anything useful.
Anyways, 25CrMo4 is same as good ole 4130 Chrome Moly.
so, the hope therefore of understanding why those DedaAcciai's "25CrMo4" tubes, and even better that Moser bicycles made with that tubes, were preferred to the Bianchi's ones with the "Chromo Lite" tubing ... I think it boils down to: how many of you have ever ridden it?

I think... very few...
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Old 10-26-23, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Can you define any of these terms? "Aging?" "Mechanical Characteristics?" "Resistance?" To what??
Ask them, I am quoting their brochures =)
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Old 10-26-23, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DiTBho
Ask them, I am quoting their brochures =)
Then I agree with your first assessment: Marketing. Fluff.

Why don't you read this article and see how different steels compared:

Magnificent 7

TL/DR: "The personality of a bike is determined much more by fit, frame geometry and components than by what kind of tubing lies under the paint."

Last edited by smd4; 10-26-23 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 10-26-23, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by smd4
Why don't you read this article and see how different steels compared:
Magnificent 7
thanks!

Originally Posted by smd4
TL/DR: "The personality of a bike is determined much more by fit, frame geometry and components than by what kind of tubing lies under the paint."
Basically, I think so too, just ... the experience I had assembling a Pinarello Prince, then dismantling it, and reassembling all the components on a Monza WR, left me perplexed, because the only difference is the frame. And both frames look very similar.

Ok, carbon frames are completely different from steel frames, and most likely the only logical conclusion is that it seems "to me" that the geometry of those two frames is similar, and it may not be.

The Moser Forma also seems to have something strange: the "dropout" seems too accentuated, in fact the standover is lower than one would expect measuring the seat tube and applying the measure to a 90s frame geometry.

It's out of 12mm at least! Not too much, but with a lower center of gravity, this could be the reason why many teams and also hobbists preferred the Moser to the Bianchi of the time.

Dunno ... tempted to buy one just to check it out by myself.
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Old 10-26-23, 11:37 AM
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Found a topic here on the forum.
A lucky owner is there =)
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Old 10-26-23, 11:48 AM
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I think carbon fiber--the fibers of which can be custom laid up in different directions and layers to produce many different results--is a different beast entirely from steel.
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Old 11-01-23, 04:23 AM
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So, a dude confirmed me these measurements
  • standover: 815mm
  • seattube c/c: 565mm
Which looks weird, so I wanted to check it, and I prepared this setup to check


Frame, 565mm

b ω tts dd θ v h (standover)
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 65.00mm 71.00deg 275.00mm 824.21mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 65.00mm 72.00deg 275.00mm 827.34mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 65.00mm 73.00deg 275.00mm 830.31mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 65.00mm 74.00deg 275.00mm 833.11mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 65.00mm 74.50deg 275.00mm 834.45mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 68.00mm 71.00deg 272.00mm 821.21mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 68.00mm 72.00deg 272.00mm 824.34mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 68.00mm 73.00deg 272.00mm 827.31mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 68.00mm 74.00deg 272.00mm 830.11mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 68.00mm 74.50deg 272.00mm 831.45mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 70.00mm 71.00deg 270.00mm 819.21mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 70.00mm 72.00deg 270.00mm 822.34mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 70.00mm 73.00deg 270.00mm 825.31mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 70.00mm 74.00deg 270.00mm 828.11mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 70.00mm 74.50deg 270.00mm 829.45mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 75.00mm 71.00deg 265.00mm 814.21mm <------------- this?
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 75.00mm 72.00deg 265.00mm 817.34mm <------------- this?
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 75.00mm 73.00deg 265.00mm 820.31mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 75.00mm 74.00deg 265.00mm 823.11mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 75.00mm 74.50deg 265.00mm 824.45mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 80.00mm 71.00deg 260.00mm 809.21mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 80.00mm 72.00deg 260.00mm 812.34mm <------------- this?
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 80.00mm 73.00deg 260.00mm 815.31mm <------------- this?
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 80.00mm 74.00deg 260.00mm 818.11mm
565.00mm 340.00mm 30.00mm 80.00mm 74.50deg 260.00mm 819.45mm

I don't know whether to trust these calculations or not, but it really seems like it has a very pronounced BB_drop (75mm? .. 80mm?), therefore it has a much lower center of gravity
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Old 11-01-23, 04:47 AM
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You're putting in a lot of work and speculation for a bike that you say you have no intention of buying. If you actually would consider buying it and it is local to you you should go look at it, measure it yourself, and take it for a test ride. If you like it, make an offer. If you actually have no intention of buying it then just forget about it and don't waste any more of the seller's time.
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Old 11-01-23, 04:56 AM
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Besides the info gained at this string, you might want to contact Greg at Red Rose Imports. He knows a lot about Mosers. Also, keep in mind that Moser made at least one titanium model (Evolution series).
My Moser has the same, noticeable bottom bracket drop and height. This gives great handling, but it forced me to go to narrower pedals, to avoid strikes. The impressions of my Falck cromo frame: Stiff, highly-maneuverable.
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Old 11-01-23, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JulesCW
You're putting in a lot of work and speculation for a bike that you say you have no intention of buying. If you actually would consider buying it and it is local to you you should go look at it, measure it yourself, and take it for a test ride. If you like it, make an offer. If you actually have no intention of buying it then just forget about it and don't waste any more of the seller's time.
as if giving two measurements means spending a week of time

That guy is 1600 km away from me, in your opinion, if it were possible to go there and take two measurements, wouldn't I have already done it?

Apart from the fact that it would make him waste much more time than 5 minutes to give me two measuraments, which moreover he has all the interest to public for those who want to buy his bicycle.

So, if there's anyone who wasted anyonelse's time, it's you with an useless response.
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Old 11-01-23, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 1989Pre
Besides the info gained at this string, you might want to contact Greg at Red Rose Imports. He knows a lot about Mosers. Also, keep in mind that Moser made at least one titanium model (Evolution series).
My Moser has the same, noticeable bottom bracket drop and height. This gives great handling, but it forced me to go to narrower pedals, to avoid strikes. The impressions of my Falck cromo frame: Stiff, highly-maneuverable.
Thanks for this info!
Very appreciated!
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