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Need Help: Looking for Garmin Gravel Worlds Vintage bike/frame

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Need Help: Looking for Garmin Gravel Worlds Vintage bike/frame

Old 11-26-23, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Piff
High trail is preferred for gravel, right? I imagine just about any 80s touring bike would work great. Japanese touring bikes often were shorter along the top.
I personally agree and I'm surprised I haven't see more people suggest touring bikes.

Originally Posted by Classtime
If the intended use is to race on gravel, shorter chain stays are preferred. What is our budget?
In what situation on a gravel bike would shorter chain stays ever be preferred?

Originally Posted by iab
Just wondering, why does that matter one iota at all? Greater races with greater racers have been done with long chain stays. They had long chain stays when roads were were pretty much mostly gravel, why were they wrong then?
Agreed. Long chain stays will only offer benefit in a long rough descent which are generally the most technical part of a gravel race in my experience. The added comfort is certainly welcomed for a long day in the saddle regardless.
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Old 11-26-23, 08:33 AM
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X3speeed, you might want to explore the highest quality option on a frame I made for the daughter of a close friend a long time ago (I'm not modest), I have a complete bicycle with a 61cm ST with a 55cm TT. Not only that but it is made out of very light Tange Prestige with .7/.4/.7 main tube wall thickness. I doubt she ever rode it 100 miles. Her proportions were not in the middle of the Bell Curve. Eventually my friend gave it back to me as it was only gathering dust in his garage. Bicycling was not her thing. It has down tube shift levers and 126 7sp rear spacing. Right now it has an aluminum fork on it which for your purposes is an issue. It can be swapped out.

Find out what the fuss is about with light tubing. It is not about the weight of the bicycle but rather how it feels when being ridden. Jan Heine wrote extensively about this. I can tell you from personal experience I really prefer the ride of light tubing myself. There is nothing to risk as it is right now a complete bicycle and you can test ride for as long as you want. Where I live in Niles, Michigan is right above South Bend, Indiana (and Notre Dame) about 100 miles from Chicago on I-80. There is a very nice bike path you can try it out from Niles to South Bend.

$1,000 for the complete bicycle may be way above your budget but maybe not when you consider what you are getting. I've been a pro builder since 1975. I'm donating all the money I may get for it to our Ukraine Bicycle Project (google that if you are not familiar with it). Yuiry and his son Yan have patched up the bullet holes in our bicycle frame workshop in Bucha, Ukraine. A generator and wood burning stove have been installed. The tools the Russians stole when they broke in have been replaced. Bucha you may remember was often in the news when the war started. The war has been hard on Yuriy. He had to hide out for several weeks underground when the invasion started and then flee west to stay with his wife's relatives. His own house was not the same when he returned. Here's a couple of pics of the bicycle.



The original owner needed her handlebars to be as high as her saddle

The H cut out was the initial of her 1st name
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Old 11-26-23, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by iab
Just wondering, why does that matter one iota at all? Greater races with greater racers have been done with long chain stays. They had long chain stays when roads were were pretty much mostly gravel, why were they wrong then?
That was then. It was not wrong. What would those greater racers chose to race on today? If the goal is to collect a finisher medal, it matters not one iota at all.
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Old 11-26-23, 09:56 AM
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Just for kicks:
I found a good pic of a 25" Voyageur 11.8 and the ratio of ST/TT ctc is 1.084 I'm not sure how Schwinn measured 25" ctc or ctt,but the ratio of 62cm/57cm is 1.087 which matches pretty well. If the OP wants to use his bits and pieces from his parts bin, 60 bucks is not bad.

another data point: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...uring-25286040
where they measure 25" ctt and 23" ctc

$60
I sent the seller a diagram instructing them how to measure the top tube and he replied 22”. So not to long.

Last edited by Classtime; 11-26-23 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 11-26-23, 11:03 AM
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.
...if you actually go see that Schwinn Voyageur frame, take along a seat post and saddle. Then you can do a mockup of saddle to bar distance, and measure it yourself on inspection.

I don't recall the post diameter, but for a mockup, you just need something that slips in there to give you the saddle position relative to the current stem and bar.

I recall it as being a very nice riding bicycle, but I didn't ride it much on gravel , and I certainly wasn't racing it. I think those were from around 1980, which was a high point in Japanese touring/light touring frame production.

I didn't realize that by "short top tube" you meant something around 57-58. I have cycles with top tubes that are somewhat shorter than that, fitted with longer stems. I doubt any would make good gravel bikes, because they are much more compact in geometry. And the more compact geometry bikes of the later 80's generally don't blend well with wider tires...as has been said a few times already.
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Old 11-26-23, 11:58 AM
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From memory and a quick google search, earlier Trek steel lugged frames that were sized in inches had 24" models (61cm) that had 58cm top tube lengths. Around Chicago and the midwest, those should show up fairly frequently.
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Old 11-26-23, 12:48 PM
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I hope you consider Doug Fattic 's offer. That is a much nicer frame than any production bike you could get that would meet your criteria and is already fully built with top end components.
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Old 11-26-23, 01:21 PM
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For pre 1988 consider following budget framesets or completes and swap parts to your specs.
Japan Schwinn World Voyager (early 70's) 4130 butted chrm molly which can take 700x42c.
Japan Schwinn Super Sports (early 80's) Tange Champion 2.
Trek 520 (mid 80's) with canti brakes, R-531 butted main tubes, easily take 700x38.

650b conversions are fine but not necessary. Piles of nice 700c wheelsets available in the $100-150 range. Spend for the tire application you need.

Compact cranks to 1x and still be able to use vintage derailleurs are a plenty. Go ahead and put a few biggie tooth cogs in the rear. Suntour Cyclone's derailleurs do well. To exceed capacity, $5 ally derailleur extension mounts are excellent. If you go a single ring up front, the old derailleurs have no clutches so don't count on them keeping the chain on. Rather use and as insurance, a front derailleur cage adapted to a band clamp from a single downtube shifter works excellent. I've used vintage Campy Nuovo Record and it all looks stock.

Anyways--- have fun
PS. Don't forget your Boy Scouts compass. The Garmin heads need to learn a few lesson.

Last edited by chain_whipped; 11-26-23 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 09:47 PM
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Bought A 1986 Miyata Two-Ten Touring Road Bike 63cm XX-Large Lugged Chromoly

Thank you all for your advice and help.
I've learned so much from you all and grabbed on to your advice to make a purchase. Cyclocross bikes were hard to find in my size. The Schwinn Voyager looked like a good deal, but I did not want to mess with the odd stem given my very short torso. As you can see from the title, I went with a 27" wheel touring frame that should accommodate wider tires with 700c wheels and cantilever brakes. The lugged triple butted chromoly should ride nicely, though not the lightest route. I purchased wheels with 105 hubs(FW) and Golber GTX rims. I may have them rebuilt with lighter spokes, but will also lean on you guys for advice. If I found NOS hubs and Rims, what should I look for for light wheels for gravel? Thoughts on 6 vs 7 speed freewheels?
Specs in Ad:
Year: 1986
Brand: Miyata
Model: Two-Ten
Size: 63 cm ctt 61 cm ctc
Top tube: 58 cm
Standover: 86 cm
Frame material: Tripple Butted Chromoly Steel
Color: Blue
Wheels: 27"


eBay Link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/254323863791
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Old 11-27-23, 10:05 PM
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Cool. Maybe you saw this? Road Test/Bike Review (1986) MIYATA 210

Shimano 600 or Dura Ace hubs on Araya A20 or Mavic G40 rims in 36 spokes have worked on gravel rides for me.
I think new 7 speed freewheels are easier to find but maybe the 6 vs. 7 speed will be determined by your choice of shifters if going index. That Miyata looks like it’s in great shape and a pretty color. I hope you will share both the build and your gravel racing on a vintage bike experience.
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Last edited by Classtime; 11-27-23 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 11-27-23, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
Cool. Maybe you saw this? Road Test/Bike Review (1986) MIYATA 210

Shimano 600 or Dura Ace hubs on Araya A20 or Mavic G40 rims in 36 spokes have worked on gravel rides for me.
I think new 7 speed freewheels are easier to find but maybe the 6 vs. 7 speed will be determined by your choice of shifters if going index. That Miyata looks like it’s in great shape and a pretty color. I hope you will share both the build and your gravel racing on a vintage bike experience.
I did not see that review! I'll read it now. Thank you.
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Old 11-27-23, 10:28 PM
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...I know nothing about the rules and format for this race, but if you are, indeed, racing, and there's any sort of pack action involved, do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and go with some sort of indexed shifting. I don't have the impression that achiving an ideal cadence is a requisite for gravel racing, so I wouldn't worry too much about six or seven in the back. Only that you getan overall range that is good for you, in your full race conditioned glory.

One of the issues you'll have trying to fit that bike with 700c rims, if the cantilever brakes are set for 27's, is that there might not be enough adjustment room on the shoes to hit the smaller diameter rim tracks. I was just riding around today on a Bianchi Randonneur with some 27" rims I built into wheels for it, and 630x32 tires, and it goes pretty good with regular 27" Panaracer Pasela tires. So probably not the end of the world, but something you need to plan out in advance of any wheel rebuilding.
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Old 11-27-23, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I know nothing about the rules and format for this race, but if you are, indeed, racing, and there's any sort of pack action involved, do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and go with some sort of indexed shifting. I don't have the impression that achiving an ideal cadence is a requisite for gravel racing, so I wouldn't worry too much about six or seven in the back. Only that you getan overall range that is good for you, in your full race conditioned glory.

One of the issues you'll have trying to fit that bike with 700c rims, if the cantilever brakes are set for 27's, is that there might not be enough adjustment room on the shoes to hit the smaller diameter rim tracks. I was just riding around today on a Bianchi Randonneur with some 27" rims I built into wheels for it, and 630x32 tires, and it goes pretty good with regular 27" Panaracer Pasela tires. So probably not the end of the world, but something you need to plan out in advance of any wheel rebuilding.

Are there canti's that have more adjustment ability than the stock ones? I'll be "racing" 150 miles, but not likely in contention unless its a thinner field.
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Old 11-27-23, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by X3speed
Are there canti's that have more adjustment ability than the stock ones? I'll be "racing" 150 miles, but not likely in contention unless its a thinner field.
...someone else probably knows more about this. There are all sorts of cantilever brakes out there.
Every bike I've ever had with cantilever brakes and 27" rims, I just built new wheels using lighter, more modern 27" rims.

Those wheels look pretty good to me, but are they "Golber" (which I never heard of) or Wolber (which I have)?
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Old 11-28-23, 12:40 AM
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Miyaya bicycles are one of the finest made production frames. When I have thrown them on my alignment table they are almost always spot on. Most production frames and old English custom frames are not. People are mistaken when they assume most good frames are aligned within a tight tolerance. Having repainted hundreds (probably thousands) of frames over many years, I can tell you the majority are not well aligned. Your frame has 72º angles. This is in line with with modern gravel frame design. I presume that is because a typical gravel rider prefers to sit up a bit higher than he would going faster on smooth roads. The more upright position is more comfortable going slower looking down the road rather than at a back wheel.

Because your bicycle is designed for touring, its triple butted tubing is VERY heavy. I'll emphasize again this is not about bicycle weight but rather how the bike feels when ridden. A loaded down frame with heavy panniers can annoyingly sway around when pedaling and the solution is to beef up the wall thicknesses of the tubing to compensate. Your down tube has a 1.0/.7/1.2mm wall thickness. I've never even heard of a good single frame having a butt thickness of 1.2mm. This is an example where Miyata went the extra length to make a frame for a specific purpose. For comparison I built a tandem with standard size tubing back in the 70's with a down tube with butts that had 1.1mm walls. That bike was rock solid.

Interestingly your rear wheel (if original) has 40 spokes. I counted them on the eBay picture and indeed the rear wheel did have 40 spokes. This is an extremely unusual count in today's world. The front wheel has 36. Again this is to withstand the abuse on a loaded down frame. For your purposes on gravel roads this is going to be a good thing. Before you go to the trouble of putting on 700c wheels, I suggest you try a pair of 27 X 1 3/8" tires. Continental still makes some nice ones in that width for touring with a puncture resistant layer. That translates to a tire width of 38mm (according to Continental), Other tire companies make similar tires. You would probably find 27 X 1 1/4" (32mm) will work okay for you too. Using 27" tires lets you avoid their expense and bother and trouble trying to make your canti brakes work.

Your frame dimensions were made in inches not centimeters. It has a seat tube length to the top of the seat lug of 25". Your top tube length is probably 22 3/4". You bought a completely different kind of frame than the one I made for my friend's daughter. Mine would be in car terms more like a Corvette and yours like a GMC Denali. There is probably an equal chance you will like your heavy solid frame compared to my much more nimble light machine. They are two very different kind of bicycles. Very.
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Old 11-28-23, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
X3speeed, you might want to explore the highest quality option on a frame I made for the daughter of a close friend a long time ago (I'm not modest), I have a complete bicycle with a 61cm ST with a 55cm TT. Not only that but it is made out of very light Tange Prestige with .7/.4/.7 main tube wall thickness. I doubt she ever rode it 100 miles. Her proportions were not in the middle of the Bell Curve. Eventually my friend gave it back to me as it was only gathering dust in his garage. Bicycling was not her thing. It has down tube shift levers and 126 7sp rear spacing. Right now it has an aluminum fork on it which for your purposes is an issue. It can be swapped out.

Find out what the fuss is about with light tubing. It is not about the weight of the bicycle but rather how it feels when being ridden. Jan Heine wrote extensively about this. I can tell you from personal experience I really prefer the ride of light tubing myself. There is nothing to risk as it is right now a complete bicycle and you can test ride for as long as you want. Where I live in Niles, Michigan is right above South Bend, Indiana (and Notre Dame) about 100 miles from Chicago on I-80. There is a very nice bike path you can try it out from Niles to South Bend.

$1,000 for the complete bicycle may be way above your budget but maybe not when you consider what you are getting. I've been a pro builder since 1975. I'm donating all the money I may get for it to our Ukraine Bicycle Project (google that if you are not familiar with it). Yuiry and his son Yan have patched up the bullet holes in our bicycle frame workshop in Bucha, Ukraine. A generator and wood burning stove have been installed. The tools the Russians stole when they broke in have been replaced. Bucha you may remember was often in the news when the war started. The war has been hard on Yuriy. He had to hide out for several weeks underground when the invasion started and then flee west to stay with his wife's relatives. His own house was not the same when he returned. Here's a couple of pics of the bicycle.



The original owner needed her handlebars to be as high as her saddle

The H cut out was the initial of her 1st name
Holy ____!!! That's stunning.

OP: "I'm looking for a good cubic zirconia."

Doug Fattic: "Perhaps you might consider this diamond of the first water."

(No offense intended to the OP or the other bikes under consideration. Just a metaphor to attempt to convey the difference between decent production bikes and Doug Fattic's handiwork shown above.)

Last edited by Trakhak; 11-28-23 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 11-28-23, 07:11 AM
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If your brakes can’t reach, I think the Shimano Deore XT BR-M737 cantis are what came on my Trek 620 and they had plenty of adjustment for 700c TB14 rims.
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Old 11-28-23, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.
...I know nothing about the rules and format for this race, but if you are, indeed, racing, and there's any sort of pack action involved, do yourself (and everyone else) a favor and go with some sort of indexed shifting. I don't have the impression that achiving an ideal cadence is a requisite for gravel racing, so I wouldn't worry too much about six or seven in the back. Only that you getan overall range that is good for you, in your full race conditioned glory.

One of the issues you'll have trying to fit that bike with 700c rims, if the cantilever brakes are set for 27's, is that there might not be enough adjustment room on the shoes to hit the smaller diameter rim tracks. I was just riding around today on a Bianchi Randonneur with some 27" rims I built into wheels for it, and 630x32 tires, and it goes pretty good with regular 27" Panaracer Pasela tires. So probably not the end of the world, but something you need to plan out in advance of any wheel rebuilding.
27” wheels and cantilevers…. Rare that the brakes can be adjusted for 700c with fidelity.
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Old 11-28-23, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Miyaya bicycles are one of the finest made production frames. When I have thrown them on my alignment table they are almost always spot on. Most production frames and old English custom frames are not. People are mistaken when they assume most good frames are aligned within a tight tolerance. Having repainted hundreds (probably thousands) of frames over many years, I can tell you the majority are not well aligned. Your frame has 72º angles. This is in line with with modern gravel frame design. I presume that is because a typical gravel rider prefers to sit up a bit higher than he would going faster on smooth roads. The more upright position is more comfortable going slower looking down the road rather than at a back wheel.

Because your bicycle is designed for touring, its triple butted tubing is VERY heavy. I'll emphasize again this is not about bicycle weight but rather how the bike feels when ridden. A loaded down frame with heavy panniers can annoyingly sway around when pedaling and the solution is to beef up the wall thicknesses of the tubing to compensate. Your down tube has a 1.0/.7/1.2mm wall thickness. I've never even heard of a good single frame having a butt thickness of 1.2mm. This is an example where Miyata went the extra length to make a frame for a specific purpose. For comparison I built a tandem with standard size tubing back in the 70's with a down tube with butts that had 1.1mm walls. That bike was rock solid.

Interestingly your rear wheel (if original) has 40 spokes. I counted them on the eBay picture and indeed the rear wheel did have 40 spokes. This is an extremely unusual count in today's world. The front wheel has 36. Again this is to withstand the abuse on a loaded down frame. For your purposes on gravel roads this is going to be a good thing. Before you go to the trouble of putting on 700c wheels, I suggest you try a pair of 27 X 1 3/8" tires. Continental still makes some nice ones in that width for touring with a puncture resistant layer. That translates to a tire width of 38mm (according to Continental), Other tire companies make similar tires. You would probably find 27 X 1 1/4" (32mm) will work okay for you too. Using 27" tires lets you avoid their expense and bother and trouble trying to make your canti brakes work.

Your frame dimensions were made in inches not centimeters. It has a seat tube length to the top of the seat lug of 25". Your top tube length is probably 22 3/4". You bought a completely different kind of frame than the one I made for my friend's daughter. Mine would be in car terms more like a Corvette and yours like a GMC Denali. There is probably an equal chance you will like your heavy solid frame compared to my much more nimble light machine. They are two very different kind of bicycles. Very.
Yes, the Miyata as a training bike.
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Old 11-28-23, 09:05 AM
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I went down this rabbit hole a couple years ago. I'd highly recommend a Schwinn Voyageur. Mine fit 38mm GravelKings SKs.

2021 Gravel Worlds vintage category

Like so: https://www.facebook.com/share/HJaBx4h9LAcH7NSJ/?mibextid=79PoIi

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Old 11-28-23, 09:45 AM
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One thing to consider is go bit older and lower with long reach brakes a lot of 70's early 80's stuff will run a 700c 38 rear 42 front. My 78 lower end Nishiki runs 32's fine and has room for 38 42 with stock center pulls which work great.


Really nice air quality with near ideal temps so some good pics.

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Old 11-28-23, 09:56 AM
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Slightly higher end 700c wheels tires on somewhat lesser bike made for 27's may be a good way to go for this type build with wanting a larger frame with slightly shorter top tube.
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Old 11-28-23, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by X3speed
Are there canti's that have more adjustment ability than the stock ones? I'll be "racing" 150 miles, but not likely in contention unless its a thinner field.
Dia Compe low profile type cantilevers something like the 980's (or varied nomenclature), made for Ritchey, Suntour etc..

Kool Stop salmon pads.
Upgrade cables from Aican or Jagwire.

If you want a 'power brake' at your finger tip, suggest a bell crank device mounted at the fork crown drilling and another at the rear seat stay bridge hole. A significant upgrade and only for cantilever brakes.
Tektro still offers them. Suntour called them 'Power Hanger', Cannondale 'Force something??', and even Trek had their own in the dealer accessories catalog.
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Old 11-28-23, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by chain_whipped
If you want a 'power brake' at your finger tip, suggest a bell crank device mounted at the fork crown drilling and another at the rear seat stay bridge hole. A significant upgrade and only for cantilever brakes.
Tektro still offers them. Suntour called them 'Power Hanger', Cannondale 'Force something??', and even Trek had their own in the dealer accessories catalog.
Can you provide a name or link to the current-model tektros? I've been curious about these but haven't wanted to pull the trigger on a set of XC-Pro canti's.
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Old 11-28-23, 10:38 AM
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Most of the 80's nicer Dia-compe stuff have a lot of reach adjustment close 10mm add 3-4mm with modern brake pads and a bit of filing.
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