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Who still makes sub 23c clincher tires?

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Who still makes sub 23c clincher tires?

Old 11-26-23, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by atlas shrugged
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Old 11-26-23, 06:29 PM
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skilasw -

Cycles Grand Bois in Japan offer 23 mm which measure 22 installed:

https://cyclesgrandbois.com/SHOP/T700_F23_SS.html
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Old 11-26-23, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
The people at Rene Herse have done some interesting studies on tire width vs speed, including with 20mm tires: https://www.renehersecycles.com/12-m...es-are-slower/
Bike Radar has also done testing, and some other outlets as well. Basically the results have shown that in lab conditions, 25mm-28mm is the faster width range, faster than narrower tires. In real-life conditions where suspension and traction also contribute to overall speed, going up to around 32mm is ideal, especially if using a wider rim to match the tire width for an aerodynamic profile. This is why you see pro teams going up to the 28mm-32mm with aero rims now: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/p...nce-tyre-tech/
Obviously as a vintage rider, speed is not my primary concern - I will use the tire width appropriate for the bike I have. But just know that your feeling that 20mm is faster has been debunked, and is just a feeling.
It seems like the wider tires perform better these days for the additional reason that lighter and more aerodynamic carbon wheel rims have become available.
Not that wider tires need wider rims, but are helped by wider rims both in terms of rolling resistance and especially aerodynamics.

There were riders back in the day who rode ~29mm Del Mundos all the time and swore by them, even after narrower tires had become de-rigeur.
I imagine those wider lightweight tires may have mopped up more thorns, but today there are tubeless tires/rims/sealants to mitigate punctures.
Wider tires allow lower tire pressure so tread wear is slower, meaning the tread can be thinner for less weight and rolling resistance.
Lastly, the more-rigid forks on all of today's disc-braked bikes are tolerable when wider/softer tires are used, all of which comes together in the modern road bike.

Some 23mm tires are much narrower than others, especially those whose molds were designed with wider rims in mind.
I bought some heavily-discounted Vittoria Zaffiros in the 25mm size that measure only 23mm on narrow rims, so perhaps the 23mm version of that tire is well short of 23mm width. I also had some "23mm" Hutchinson Fusion2 tires that measured short of 22mm wide on narrow rims.
Note that a narrower rim does actually reduce the tire's rolling diameter a bit, as well as the mounted width.

Last edited by dddd; 11-26-23 at 06:57 PM.
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Old 11-26-23, 07:01 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Try different rims, even the same model. A 25c Pasela on my older Sun m13ii polished rims measures a true 25mm, but on my new Sun rims that are black anodized, they only measure 24mm.

And a 25c GP5000 measures closer to 23mm.
Yes, this is part of it. The old Vento rims are pretty narrow, so they bulge up tires. Ive ran 23s on this bike with other rims, but that was the absolute limit.
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Old 11-26-23, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
The people at Rene Herse have done some interesting studies on tire width vs speed, including with 20mm tires: https://www.renehersecycles.com/12-m...es-are-slower/
Bike Radar has also done testing, and some other outlets as well. Basically the results have shown that in lab conditions, 25mm-28mm is the faster width range, faster than narrower tires. In real-life conditions where suspension and traction also contribute to overall speed, going up to around 32mm is ideal, especially if using a wider rim to match the tire width for an aerodynamic profile. This is why you see pro teams going up to the 28mm-32mm with aero rims now: https://www.bikeradar.com/features/p...nce-tyre-tech/
Obviously as a vintage rider, speed is not my primary concern - I will use the tire width appropriate for the bike I have. But just know that your feeling that 20mm is faster has been debunked, and is just a feeling.
Actually that is what I meant to say 'feels' faster, I am aware this they are not necessarily faster, especially over distance and differing road surfaces. Downhill on smooth pavement thought that faster 'feeling' is pretty convincing.
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Old 11-27-23, 06:58 AM
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Keep in mind that many of our bikes are made for non-wider tires. AND they certainly look nicer with 23s or less.


Not the ops bike.
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Old 11-27-23, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
Keep in mind that many of our bikes are made for non-wider tires. AND they certainly look nicer with 23s or less.
I've got a bike built in 1987 that has tight clearances. That was the fashion then, and that was when 20mm tires were popular.
Nowadays, when 25mm is considered to be small, you do need to be thinking about what will fit.

In my case, the short reach Campy brakes with the pads at the top of the slots is a hint that things are tight.
The bike is currently fitted with some Conti tires that measure 25mm, and there's just not room for anything bigger.



of course, it could be worse.
Some bikes were built with extremely tight clearances, such as this Masi track bike (upper left photo)...




Steve in Peoria
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Old 11-27-23, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by skillasw
My Bianchi TSX with Campy Vento rims will only tolerate sub 23c tires.
Are you saying that the rims are so wide that the tires become wider than usual?

Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Vittoria has the Corsa G+ in a "23c" tubular that actually measures out to 22.7mm.
I've had both the Vittoria Corsa and Veloflex Corsa on the same rim on the same bike, and I can say for a fact that the Veloflex is significantly narrower than the Vittoria.
The Veloflex rides very well too. I thought I would never be happy on anything under 25mm, but the Veloflex Corsa at 23mm proved me wrong.
Of course all this discussion is moot because the OP needs SUB 23mm tires.
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Old 11-27-23, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
I've got a bike built in 1987 that has tight clearances. That was the fashion then, and that was when 20mm tires were popular.
Nowadays, when 25mm is considered to be small, you do need to be thinking about what will fit.

In my case, the short reach Campy brakes with the pads at the top of the slots is a hint that things are tight.
The bike is currently fitted with some Conti tires that measure 25mm, and there's just not room for anything bigger.



of course, it could be worse.
Some bikes were built with extremely tight clearances, such as this Masi track bike (upper left photo)...




Steve in Peoria
I put the Continental Cassic ( I think that's the name) tan wall 25c on my Mavic Open Ceramic rims, 1984 Bianchi Tipo Corsa. They were so "wide/tall" that I had to let the air out of the rear tire to remove it (to put in a car). That's how close the tire was to the seat stay!
I put 23c Michelins on now which are okay, but I pine for the old days when you cold get narrow Kevlar bead tires!. It would be nice to see some better quality 19c to 23c tires out there, but demand might be low.
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Old 11-27-23, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
Try different rims, even the same model. A 25c Pasela on my older Sun m13ii polished rims measures a true 25mm, but on my new Sun rims that are black anodized, they only measure 24mm.

And a 25c GP5000 measures closer to 23mm.
I played contact sports growing up. We all knew that dark jerseys made us look smaller. So - does making the rim black, the rim (and tire) appear smaller translate into the tire being smaller? Do we have to factor in rim color when pairing marginal tires with our very close frames? I'm riding an old race bike with GP4 rims. If I went silver, would me tubbies still fit?
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Old 11-27-23, 03:23 PM
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The clearance between the tire and the underside of the Masi fork crown looks like a bit more than the 1/32" mentioned in the photo caption, but it is pretty close. The photo reminded me that I still have the fork from my Bianchi Eco Pista, bought new (via employee discount program) in 1983, sitting in a box in the basement. (When I built the bike, I replaced the fork with a generic chrom-moly one that was drilled for a brake.)

The underside of the original fork's crown was crudely filed at the factory with a half-round file, increasing the tire clearance significantly, before it was painted. No doubt they'd already built a run of forks for the Eco Pista before someone pointed out that the cheap tubulars the bikes were to be sold with wouldn't fit under the crown.
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Old 11-27-23, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Does a black rim make the tire smaller?
I wish I knew the metaphysics or chromatics behind it. I'm just a normal sort with old rims, new rims, and a $5 digital caliper.
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Old 11-27-23, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchi84
...
I put 23c Michelins on now which are okay, but I pine for the old days when you cold get narrow Kevlar bead tires!. It would be nice to see some better quality 19c to 23c tires out there, but demand might be low.
I've got Veloflex Corsa tires on a few bikes, and they are high quality tires. I've got 23mm versions on Ambrosio Elite rims (20mm exterior width), and the tires end up 23mm wide and 23mm higher than the rim.
Another bike has the 25mm version on Mavic MA-2 rims (also about 20mm wide). The tires are about 23mm wide, but 25mm higher than the rim.

I expect that the tires are still available in 23mm.

Steve in Peoria
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