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Alloy

Old 11-28-23, 12:53 PM
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To me a clip only holds things together by surrounding them; it does not lock, latch or attach them. Eg. paper clip, binder clip, chip clip, etc. In other words, a clip goes _around_ things that it keeps together, not _between_ them, the way a cleat, binding, clasp, snap, buckle, etc. does. No one calls ski bindings "clips", for example.

That said, "clipless" is just another example of the peril we encounter when we adopt a term based on the absence of something. Horseless carriage, unleaded gasoline, brushless motor, etc. "Snap-in" would have made a lot more sense at the time.
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Old 11-28-23, 02:39 PM
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Old 11-28-23, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue
To me a clip only holds things together by surrounding them; it does not lock, latch or attach them. Eg. paper clip, binder clip, chip clip, etc. In other words, a clip goes _around_ things that it keeps together, not _between_ them, the way a cleat, binding, clasp, snap, buckle, etc. does. No one calls ski bindings "clips", for example.

That said, "clipless" is just another example of the peril we encounter when we adopt a term based on the absence of something. Horseless carriage, unleaded gasoline, brushless motor, etc. "Snap-in" would have made a lot more sense at the time.
But modern ski bindings and modern “clipless” pedals does exactly what you describe. The “clip” on a clipless pedal surrounds the cleat and holds it in place. Step down on the pedal mechanism and it spreads open (red arrows) then springs (green arrows) back to surround the cleat and keep it bound together.




Toe clips, on the other hand, have no mechanism to bind things together. The toe straps can bind the shoe to the pedal but there are “toe clips” that don’t use straps.

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Old 11-28-23, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
But modern ski bindings and modern “clipless” pedals does exactly what you describe. The “clip” on a clipless pedal surrounds the cleat and holds it in place. Step down on the pedal mechanism and it spreads open (red arrows) then springs (green arrows) back to surround the cleat and keep it bound together.




Toe clips, on the other hand, have no mechanism to bind things together. The toe straps can bind the shoe to the pedal but there are “toe clips” that don’t use straps.

Clipless pedals do not have a part described as a clip. That's a lever.

"Clips" in general are springy bits of metal. A toe clip meets that description well enough, especially when combined with a cleated shoe.

Clipless pedals, having moving parts to do their thing, are much more like a clasp.
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Old 11-28-23, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Neese
Because "alloy" sounds classier, more expensive, and higher-end. Nobody wants to admit that their bike is just just aluminum.
It’s not “just aluminum”. Aluminum bikes are made of aluminum mixed with other stuff. 6061 aluminum is 97% aluminum but the other 3% is made up of silicon (Si), magnesium (Mg), chromium (Cr), and copper (Cu). 7075 aluminum is only 90% aluminum with the rest being zinc, Mg, and Cu.

Steel is also an alloy as has been mentioned. It has iron and a whole bunch of other elements in it. A 4130 chrom-moly steel has carbon (0.28/0.33%), sulfur (0.025 max.), molybdenum (0.15/0.25), manganese (0.40/0.60), silicon (0.15/0.35), nickel (0.25 max.), phosphorus (0.025 max.) chromium (0.80/1.10) and copper (0.35 max) in it. It has more stuff but in smaller amounts. I didn’t add it all up but steel is about 98 to 99% iron.

Yes, we should call them both alloys but “alloy” has come to stand for an aluminum alloy in the vernacular. It’s a bit grating but people do that with lots and lots of stuff. Don’t get me started on balance vs scale and clear vs colorless.
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Old 11-28-23, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Clipless pedals do not have a part described as a clip. That's a lever.
Not a lever. The clipless mechanism is exactly analogous to the binder clip or chip bag clip or, if the concept is stretched a little, a paper clip. All use a spring mechanism that has to be forced open and then the spring closes the clip around an object. In the case of the binder clip and paper clip, it’s papers. In the case of a chip bag clip it is the top of the chip bag. In the case of the clipless pedal, it is the cleat.

"Clips" in general are springy bits of metal. A toe clip meets that description well enough, especially when combined with a cleated shoe.
Toe clips are only springy in the fact that they usually spring away from the shoe to allow entry. They don’t spring back like the clips described above. The toe strap can be used to pull the clip down but the toe strap isn’t part of the “toe clip”. Toe clips can be used without straps and can even come without the ability to use straps as this strapless toeclips indicate. Without the straps, the clips keep the shoe sort of oriented on the pedal but they don’t have a mechanism to “bind” the shoe to the pedal nor hold it in place. Simply put, the toe clip doesn’t “clip” anything.

Clipless pedals, having moving parts to do their thing, are much more like a clasp.
A bag clip has moving parts. A binder clip has moving parts of a sort…the two sides have to be forced apart and the springiness of the steel moves them back together. Even a lowly paper clip has to be forced apart and depends on the spring in the metal to work to hold papers together.

A binder clip does use lever action to work. Squeeze on the silver arms (red arrow below) and the jaws are levered open. Remove pressure on the arms (green arrows) and the jaws close.
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Old 11-28-23, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Not a lever. The clipless mechanism is exactly analogous to the binder clip or chip bag clip or, if the concept is stretched a little, a paper clip. All use a spring mechanism that has to be forced open and then the spring closes the clip around an object. In the case of the binder clip and paper clip, it’s papers. In the case of a chip bag clip it is the top of the chip bag. In the case of the clipless pedal, it is the cleat.



Toe clips are only springy in the fact that they usually spring away from the shoe to allow entry. They don’t spring back like the clips described above. The toe strap can be used to pull the clip down but the toe strap isn’t part of the “toe clip”. Toe clips can be used without straps and can even come without the ability to use straps as this strapless toeclips indicate. Without the straps, the clips keep the shoe sort of oriented on the pedal but they don’t have a mechanism to “bind” the shoe to the pedal nor hold it in place. Simply put, the toe clip doesn’t “clip” anything.



A bag clip has moving parts. A binder clip has moving parts of a sort…the two sides have to be forced apart and the springiness of the steel moves them back together. Even a lowly paper clip has to be forced apart and depends on the spring in the metal to work to hold papers together.

A binder clip does use lever action to work. Squeeze on the silver arms (red arrow below) and the jaws are levered open. Remove pressure on the arms (green arrows) and the jaws close.
A bag clip is a modern invention that offers more function than traditional clips that are single pieces. Paper clips, tie clips, clothes pins, stripper clips, pen clips, etc are simple clips that have no moving parts in their original form.

You can certainly call a clipless pedal a type of clip, but unlike ever other kind of clip that relies on a combination of friction and tension to hold something, Look pedals latch onto the cleat and are mechanically locked together in its effective plane of action. Imagine having to turn a chip clip 45 degrees left to get it off the bag.

We "clipped in" before there were clipless pedals. Like we still "dial" phones.
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Old 11-28-23, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
A bag clip is a modern invention that offers more function than traditional clips that are single pieces. Paper clips, tie clips, clothes pins, stripper clips, pen clips, etc are simple clips that have no moving parts in their original form.
Tie clips use a spring mechanism to close the jaws and a lever mechanism to close them. Traditional wooden clothes pins use the spring of the wood to hold the clothes on the line while spring clothes pins use a lever and spring mechanism like the tie clip and binder clip and bag clip. Pen clips come in a variety of forms but all use the spring of the clip material to fasten them to a pocket. Some even use a spring mechanism like the bag clip, tie clip and clipless pedals. I’m not going to address stripper clips after looking them up…violates Forum rules.

You can certainly call a clipless pedal a type of clip, but unlike ever other kind of clip that relies on a combination of friction and tension to hold something, Look pedals latch onto the cleat and are mechanically locked together in its effective plane of action. Imagine having to turn a chip clip 45 degrees left to get it off the bag.
You are being too limited in your understanding of the “clip” part. The difference between a clipless pedal’s spring mechanism and that of a bag clip, binder clip, clothes pin, etc. is that the “lever” to open the clip is the cleat and the shoe it is attached to. We rotate the shoe to force the spring open so that we can remove the cleat. It is exactly the same as all those other mechanisms except the lever comes from a different side. You could turn the chip bag 45° to force open the spring but the bag isn’t stiff enough to do the job. You can open a binder clip by forcing the two sides apart but it’s easier to use the levers. You could open a clothes pin by jamming a screw driver between the jaws but it’s easier to use the end of the clothes pin. Clipless pedals actually do open the spring that way but the shoe is attached to a longer lever than any of those other kinds of clips.

​​​​​​​We "clipped in" before there were clipless pedals. Like we still "dial" phones.
Only because the toe cage was misnamed. Language is funny in that lots and lots and lots of archaic words exist for things we don’t do anymore but use them all the time. We don’t “crank” engines like they did 100 years or more ago. We don’t put stuff in the “icebox”. We don’t really make “carbon copies”. We don’t “hang up” the phone.
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Old 11-28-23, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Tie clips use a spring mechanism to close the jaws and a lever mechanism to close them. Traditional wooden clothes pins use the spring of the wood to hold the clothes on the line while spring clothes pins use a lever and spring mechanism like the tie clip and binder clip and bag clip. Pen clips come in a variety of forms but all use the spring of the clip material to fasten them to a pocket. Some even use a spring mechanism like the bag clip, tie clip and clipless pedals. I’m not going to address stripper clips after looking them up…violates Forum rules.



You are being too limited in your understanding of the “clip” part. The difference between a clipless pedal’s spring mechanism and that of a bag clip, binder clip, clothes pin, etc. is that the “lever” to open the clip is the cleat and the shoe it is attached to. We rotate the shoe to force the spring open so that we can remove the cleat. It is exactly the same as all those other mechanisms except the lever comes from a different side. You could turn the chip bag 45° to force open the spring but the bag isn’t stiff enough to do the job. You can open a binder clip by forcing the two sides apart but it’s easier to use the levers. You could open a clothes pin by jamming a screw driver between the jaws but it’s easier to use the end of the clothes pin. Clipless pedals actually do open the spring that way but the shoe is attached to a longer lever than any of those other kinds of clips.



Only because the toe cage was misnamed. Language is funny in that lots and lots and lots of archaic words exist for things we don’t do anymore but use them all the time. We don’t “crank” engines like they did 100 years or more ago. We don’t put stuff in the “icebox”. We don’t really make “carbon copies”. We don’t “hang up” the phone.
Hmmm. "Crankcase" where the bellcrank mechanism is.

On clips, you remove the object with the same kind of force and in the opposite direction that we put them together. Clipless pedals do snap out by pulling out in the opposite direction that we push in.

"Stripper clip" is a mechanism used to load late 19th century guns. Like all my examples, it is a single piece of metal that is filled and emptied in an equal and opposite manner.

And yes, tie clips were single pieces of unhinged metal before they had moving parts. Like paper clips. Or C-clips. Or moon clips. Or money clips.

Ski bindings aren't clips. They bind, and won't release the way they are inserted. Pedal bindings would be the most useful name.

Or, "interlockers":
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Old 11-29-23, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Who's the jerk that first called snapping into clipless pedals "clipping in"?
Everyone knows you snap into a Slim Jim. Nothing else may be snapped into.
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Old 11-29-23, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
It goes back further. Who was the person who called the metal bands on pedals “clips”?
Probably translated from a French word.
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Old 11-29-23, 12:28 AM
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People refer to aluminum as "alloy" because "aluminum" has connotations of cheap and trashy.

These folks also use non-standard abbreviations such as ALU or Alum instead of the standard and shorter periodic table abbreviation Al.
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Old 11-29-23, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Probably translated from a French word.
Le Clip
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Old 11-29-23, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Hmmm. "Crankcase" where the bellcrank mechanism is.
That’s not a fossil word like “dialing a phone” or “carbon copy”. Perhaps from an aviation stand point but there are millions upon millions of motor vehicles that have a crankcase.

On clips, you remove the object with the same kind of force and in the opposite direction that we put them together. Clipless pedals do snap out by pulling out in the opposite direction that we push in.
That kind of goes without saying. That doesn’t mean the mechanism isn’t a “clip”, however.

​​​​​​​"Stripper clip"
Again, not touching that example because of Forum rules.

​​​​​​​And yes, tie clips were single pieces of unhinged metal before they had moving parts. Like paper clips. Or C-clips. Or money clips.
They are all flat metal “spring clips”. Replacing the flat metal with a wound metal spring doesn’t change the way the device works.

​​​​​​​Ski bindings aren't clips. They bind, and won't release the way they are inserted. Pedal bindings would be the most useful name.
Ski binding “bind” by using a spring that can be forced open by a lever arm, then springs back to hold the boot to the ski…exactly like a clipless pedal, a bag clip, a tie clip, or any of a number of other kinds of mechanisms that are called clips. Even an ancient nordic binding with the springs that run along the outside of the boot is still a “clip”. If you go back far enough, skis were actually attached with leather straps which are bindings and analogous to (the misnamed) “toe clip”. Those both aren’t really “clips” in any way.

​​​​​​​Or, "interlockers":
Yes, you could call them that. You’d be looked at like you were speaking Martian but you could call them that. That doesn’t mean that they don’t use a clipping mechanism and really are the actual toe clips.

To be clear, I’m not going to go around calling “clipless pedals” by any other name because they really aren’t “clipless”. I really don’t want to have people looking at me like I’m speaking Martian. That doesn’t mean that the pedals don’t use clips but trying to convince people otherwise is just too much effort.
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Old 11-29-23, 08:59 AM
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Translate word for word English or American English bicycle terms into French or Italian and a whole new vocabulary will be revealed.
‘the Italians have a tough time with concise terminology, they get there but often many words to do so.

of course one can take the Innes Ireland view, shout loud enough in English and they are bound to understand you.

bicycles and cycling should not be a secret decoder ring club for the elites.
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Old 11-29-23, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
bicycles and cycling should not be a secret decoder ring club for the elites.
I dunno, I think you're on to something there. We need Latin words for 'em all!
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Old 11-29-23, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
bicycles and cycling should not be a secret decoder ring club for the elites.
Not sure you need to be an "elite" to know what an alloy stem or clipless pedals refer to...
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Old 11-29-23, 10:25 AM
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I think the alloy thing is not widely enough understood. Aluminum is a metal which is not very metallic as an element (not alloyed). When you try to bend it it bends but it stays bent, like cold-setting. If you try to bendi it back that setting does not reverse, and that stress-restress cycle damages the crystal structure. In iron there is a stress-damage thing as well, but it flexes /rebounds over a wider range than pure aluminum. In aluminum used for machine parts (bikes, motorcycles, WW2 fighter planes, et cetera) there is not much durability. Iron OTOH is better, but not truly effective in products. To get much greater strength (resistance to stress cycles) and flexibility (ability to flex deeply) Iron is combined with other metals (chromium, molybdenum, nickel, and vanadium for example) and other elements (i.e. carbon or silicon) can result in steel materials which are much more useful in products. We tend to refer to them based on product names (Reynolds 531 or Cyclex), specification numbers or general chemical names (4130 or CrMo) or abbreviations (cromo or chromoly). For aluminum nearly all useful appications are based on alloys of aluminum with other metals and perhaps non-metals.

So the aluminums used on bikes are pretty much all alloys of some sort, designed for specific purposes, at least general purposes. But for most of us it's too hard to use the words "aluminum alloy" when it's understandable and not wrong to say "alloy." At least, in my opinion.
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Old 11-29-23, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
But modern ski bindings and modern “clipless” pedals does exactly what you describe. The “clip” on a clipless pedal surrounds the cleat and holds it in place. Step down on the pedal mechanism and it spreads open (red arrows) then springs (green arrows) back to surround the cleat and keep it bound together.




Toe clips, on the other hand, have no mechanism to bind things together. The toe straps can bind the shoe to the pedal but there are “toe clips” that don’t use straps.

As well, conventional toe clips can be used with loose straps which only serve to give tactile location. But they can be snugged up for pretty good retention. IMHO that's the best compromise
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Old 11-29-23, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
‘the Italians have a tough time with concise terminology, they get there but often many words to do so.
And many hand gestures.

bicycles and cycling should not be a secret decoder ring club for the elites.
Seems like most "special interest" endeavors fall into this. Witness any shooting sports enthusiast discussion of "clip" vs. "magazine". Don't you dare ever refer to the "right" side or "front" of a boat. And so on.

Back slightly on topic, and borrowing from another currently active thread, why are brake bolts with exposed nuts called "nutted". Don't ALL brake bolts use nuts, just some are recessed?

And totally off topic - why is the REM "Green" album cover orange?
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Old 11-29-23, 08:28 PM
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One of those “well, duh!” moments. “Steel” implies an alloy of iron and other elements. We don’t call the metal mixture used in bicycles and other things as “iron”, even though that is the vast majority of material in the mixtures. “Alloy” as aluminum alloys are referred to is used because we don’t have another name for the mixture of elements that make up aluminum alloys other than to just call it “alloy”. It’s short hand but, then, so is calling the alloy of iron with other elements “steel”
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Old 11-29-23, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That’s not a fossil word like “dialing a phone” or “carbon copy”. Perhaps from an aviation stand point but there are millions upon millions of motor vehicles that have a crankcase.
Which is why saying that we crank them isn't an anachronism as you suggested.
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Old 11-30-23, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kontact
Which is why saying that we crank them isn't an anachronism as you suggested.
The “crankcase” isn’t for crank starting a car. It encloses the the crank arm of the engine. “Cranking” a car used to mean literally using an external arm to turn the engine over to make the ignition fire. We use a starter now to turn a flywheel to get the motor started but early cars didn’t do that.
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Old 11-30-23, 09:23 AM
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Doesn't a piston engine have multiple crank arms, that make up the crankshaft, that sits in the crankcase? Wouldn't that have been true even if the first reciprocating engines had electric starters rather than external cranks?

Good thing we're not fretting over musical instrument terminology.
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Old 12-02-23, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
The real question is why don’t we call them solutions? That’s what they are…homogeneous solid mixtures which is the definition of a solution.
It's because not all of us are chemists so we don't think as you do. Maybe the world would be better if we did, but hey.
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