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Fell into a frame

Old 01-18-24, 11:18 AM
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Fell into a frame

Sometimes you just fall into things. I was offered this Claud Butler frameset yesterday. Of course I said yes.

It's a repaint obviously, and was never assembled after it was painted. Decals are under clear, and it appears to be correct, but I am no Claud Butler expert.

As far as I can tell, it was made in January of 1950, but I might be mistaken. It's very interesting as a frameset. It is 56X55, so it's perfectly my size. I took some quick pictures last night after I excitedly drove it home.




I will get some good daylight pics tomorrow. Paint job isn't bad, and the lug lining looks really good at any normal viewing distance.
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Old 01-18-24, 11:20 AM
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Never assembled. The seller had been sitting on it for a while.
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Old 01-18-24, 11:25 AM
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Very fun to just hold and look at the little details. It's fillet brazed, and the "lugs" are hand sculpted obviously.
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Old 01-18-24, 12:00 PM
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Fell into a frame - but fortunately it was steel. I was able to get out through the limber holes. It was tough!

That said - nice! I like those lugs!
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Old 01-18-24, 12:06 PM
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-----



WOW!

so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:

a) quality &

b) exactly the right size

hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?

period?

other?

headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions


-----
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Old 01-18-24, 12:13 PM
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very nice looking ride. Unusual and very flashy color. Colour

would make a nice display or wal hanger

/markp
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Old 01-18-24, 12:29 PM
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That's quite a landing. I hope that you have a great time getting it operational, and then riding it.
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Old 01-18-24, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----



WOW!

so rare that when something "falls into one's lap" it be:

a) quality &

b) exactly the right size

hast thee as yet forumulated any build plans?

period?

other?

headset appears to be Alatet, both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Ltd did their own editions


-----
I am not sure. As just a frame/fork, it's a great "show off" for the collection, and would allow myself and other enthusiasts to inspect it without encumbrance. If I go rider, I would go full period.

That's the issue. If I go period, in all honesty, I wouldn't ride it that much, as it is just not practical. It would become one of my "5AM" bikes (I ride around the neighborhood at 5AM on a Sunday morning as to avoid cars etc.)

That being said, I believe in complete bikes, but I have not decided yet.

The reason the guy sold it was that he wanted to make it practical and was contemplating a coaster brake, but just never got around to it. Sinking the money into a period build did not have any appeal to him, as after the expense it was going to be a wall hanger anyway. He put the money that changed hands into his Bob Jackson touring bike that he was really going to put some miles on.
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Old 01-18-24, 12:56 PM
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Beautiful! The details are outstanding but Id really love to see a photo of the complete frame and fork.
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Old 01-18-24, 01:09 PM
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nice vintage 'iron", appears to have the CB bi-laminate lugs that are named "All-rounder" in some catalogs (catalogues) such as this from '53, and the model might be an Olympic Sprint since fork was not drilled for brakes (but how about a shot that shows the rear bridge, presumably an arch with no brake hole?)
https://nkilgariff.com/CBcats/Cat_53/CB1953_Cat.htm
Another clue to age is naturally the serial number but I haven't found the same spreadsheet for pre-Holdsworthy CBs as are kept for Holdsworthy era marques (Holdsworth, Claud Butler, Freddie Grubb, etc.) plus what years used the grease-fitting on BB shell
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Old 01-18-24, 01:24 PM
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Yep, looks like Jan 1950.

There's a 1951 catalogue on here: https://nkilgariff.com/ClaudButler.htm
Check out (2) New Allrounder Bi-laminations

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Old 01-18-24, 02:36 PM
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Original to hold on the headbadge would be drive-screws?

nice details, no sense of geometry.
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Old 01-18-24, 02:39 PM
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I'll get some pics, but everything points to 1950 I agree. The dropouts are even longer than '51 and mine has the custom option of the 1.125" diameter top tube (offered in 1950 pretty sure). It isn't drilled for brakes (thank goodness).
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Old 01-18-24, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Original to hold on the headbadge would be drive-screws?

nice details, no sense of geometry.
Yes on the screws, they are incorrect. I'll get full pics and wheelbase etc.
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Old 01-18-24, 02:46 PM
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This is fantastic, we seem to be swimming in British goodness lately, Holdsworth's, Mercian's, CB's, a Few Raleigh's for good measure and others.
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Old 01-18-24, 02:53 PM
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As to the dating- I have read/heard that the prefix on the serial (it's 2 parts) is the year stamped either YY/M or YY/MM, but someone also said that it was the suffix (dating digits), so a bit of confusion when I grabbed it (and I grabbed it!).

Nothing in 1943 matched (433 suffix) so January 1950 (501) made perfect sense. I do not know if prefix/suffix got dyslexic sometimes, but I would think Y/M would definitely make sense as the first set of digits. But, then again those guys drive on the wrong side of the road, so who knows?

The "U" on the BB has been noted before, but I have not heard anything on what that means.
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Old 01-18-24, 02:53 PM
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Here's a 1951 Allrounder on Ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125611580056?hash=item1d3f089a98:gDMAAOSwDONjcT4f
There are some differences:
  • Seat stay tops
  • Not track dropouts
Unfortunately I don't know what the CB track models were called.

Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."


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Old 01-18-24, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Aardwolf
Here's a 1951 Allrounder on Ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125611580056?hash=item1d3f089a98:gDMAAOSwDONjcT4f
There are some differences:
  • Seat stay tops
  • Not track dropouts
Unfortunately I don't know what the CB track models were called.

Edit:
Here's the standard reference for Holdsworth / Claud Butler frame numbers:
https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/
"pre 1959 Upto 7 digits. First 2 to 3 Digits Year/Month ..."

So January 1950, the 433rd frame built that year. If that's correct (I am pretty sure) then CB was pumping out some bikes! Even it was the last bike of that month it's a bunch.
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Old 01-18-24, 03:42 PM
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Very nice score! It would be tempting to build up as a single speed of some sorts just to be able to ride occasionally.
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Old 01-18-24, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
Very nice score! It would be tempting to build up as a single speed of some sorts just to be able to ride occasionally.
3-speed coaster brake, perhaps?
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Old 01-18-24, 03:50 PM
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The rat hole of options on how to build this up period correct is pretty open, and can be pretty expensive. Having 2 ( one - 1940's and a 1950) British frames fall into my lap I'm experiencing the fun of that right now.
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Old 01-18-24, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by John E
3-speed coaster brake, perhaps?
That is what the original owner had planned. I just couldn't stomach bolting the torsion arm to the pencil stays, and I mean pencil!
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Old 01-18-24, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SwimmerMike
The rat hole of options on how to build this up period correct is pretty open, and can be pretty expensive. Having 2 ( one - 1940's and a 1950) British frames fall into my lap I'm experiencing the fun of that right now.
I am still waiting on that '77 Super frame that you sold to me to get back from paint, and I have not completed collecting all the parts yet for that beauty! The party never ends. Never mind a 979 with NOS Mavic all over the place sitting in a work stand right now.

To quote Pesci from Goodfellas- "It's because I'm stupid like that".
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Old 01-18-24, 05:21 PM
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That's a very nice frame and my favorite of the Claud Butler bilaminate lugs. If the Olympic Sprint I'd previously had was a '51 or earlier rather than the '52 with the new style lugs I probably wouldn't have been able to part with it.

Here's a bit of inspiration.

-Gregory



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Old 01-18-24, 05:33 PM
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Kilroy1988 That first pale blue one is especially incredible. Lovely, lovely.
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