Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

Maillard 700 cones....

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

Maillard 700 cones....

Old 02-17-24, 05:48 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Maillard 700 cones....

Iíve got a set of wheels with Maillard 700 hi-flange hubs Iíd really like to use. The front hub is complete, however the rear is missing itís axle/cones/nuts and one of the black plastic dust caps. Iíve got a friend with a 3D printer who can make me a dust cap based on the one I have. Axle & nuts are no problem, but the conesÖÖ From what I can gather, there is often some wiggle room with cone shape/radius, but having messed around with trying to resuscitate some Normandy Luxe Comp hubs with their super shallow radius cones (the cones were badly pitted and I gave up on trying to get alternatives to work), and lacking the originals for the 700s to reference Iím wondering if Iíll have the same problem. Did Maillard 700 cones have an unusual radius? I want to use these wheels on a Ďtownieí build Iím doing with a basket-case PX-10, so itís not likely to see thousands and thousands of miles. But still, Iíd like the hubs to workÖ

Last edited by ehcoplex; 02-17-24 at 08:38 AM. Reason: grammar
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 08:07 AM
  #2  
WGB
 
WGB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,909

Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1790 Post(s)
Liked 2,321 Times in 1,372 Posts
interested in this as well
WGB is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 10:18 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
I'm going to climb out on a limb with a chain saw, and say I doubt that the manufacturer was changed for the cones, axles and nuts throughout the product line were different from year to year. And if that is the case a Helicomatic hub can likely be scavenged for replacement parts. Too bad I didn't know this before I sent out your BOC, or I could have fit a hub in there for you. I can send you one if you want to try the parts in your hub, and if so you can report back to all if the parts interchange. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Likes For Mad Honk:
Old 02-17-24, 10:29 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk
I'm going to climb out on a limb with a chain saw, and say I doubt that the manufacturer was changed for the cones, axles and nuts throughout the product line were different from year to year. And if that is the case a Helicomatic hub can likely be scavenged for replacement parts. Too bad I didn't know this before I sent out your BOC, or I could have fit a hub in there for you. I can send you one if you want to try the parts in your hub, and if so you can report back to all if the parts interchange. Smiles, MH
Much appreciated, but... I'm 87% sure I read somewhere in my searchings that the bearing size differs between the Helicomatic version and the 'regular' one, which makes me think the cones might also be different? I was being lazy and trying to avoid it, but I've got a Campy rear hub here I can pull apart and test-fit it's axle & cones in the 700 and see how it feels... Come to think of it, I might have a wheel with a Shimano hub I could try the same thing with.... I'll report back.
ehcoplex is offline  
Likes For ehcoplex:
Old 02-17-24, 10:31 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 625

Bikes: 68 SS, 72 Fuji Finest, 72 PX-10, 77 Pana Pro 7000, 84 Pinnarello Treviso NR, 84 Trek 520, 88 Project KOM, 90 Trek 750, 91 Trek 930

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times in 142 Posts
I believe Helicomatic used smaller balls so no
__________________
Last new bike 1991
dmark is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 11:00 AM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Dave Mayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,497
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1367 Post(s)
Liked 475 Times in 277 Posts
My experience with vintage French hubs is bad, in that the cones are made of soft material and pit a lot faster than Campy hubs, even the lesser Campy hubs such as Tipo and Victory/Triomphe.

Check your hub for the size and number of balls. Campy hubs in the freewheel era mostly took 10 x 3/16" balls in the front, and 9 x 1/4" balls in the back. Ditto with Shimano and Suntour. If your hubs follow the same spec, then there is a strong chance you can retrofit your hubs with a complete axle/cone/ball assembly from one of these manufacturers - a definite upgrade from mid-range French hardware.
Dave Mayer is offline  
Likes For Dave Mayer:
Old 02-17-24, 11:15 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,232
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3797 Post(s)
Liked 3,313 Times in 2,163 Posts
-----

the actual manufacturer of the hub is Etablissements Perrin et Courson, best known as producers of Pelissier, New Star & Exceltoo marked products



[advert of July 1973, the launch year]

since you have the generation with the black plastic dustcaps that makes it the G1/early version

there is also a G2/late edition

do not know if cones the same for both; my experience limited to the G1

two places where would expect discussion of these hubs to have taken place is the GitaneUSA forum and the CR list

forum member verktyg has made very detailed posts concerning cones for the various generations of the Luxe Competition hub but have not seen him to write on the 700; he may have done so on the Gitane forum &/or the CR list

one thing to be aware of regarding the design of the 700 is that the bearing cups have larger holes for the axle than do the barrels; the seat for the cups is square is cross section such that when installed the cups have no open space on their back side to knock them out with a drift punch should replacement be required


-----
juvela is offline  
Likes For juvela:
Old 02-17-24, 11:22 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Alrighty... I pulled apart a Campy small-flange Gran Sport hub and tried the axle/cones/etc in the 700 shell and.. success. Spins smooth, no weirdness, etc. AFAIK, the cones on Campy GS hubs are the same as Record. Now I'm wondering if Campy cones changed much over the years, or if I can just get any Campy rear cones....
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 11:26 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 625

Bikes: 68 SS, 72 Fuji Finest, 72 PX-10, 77 Pana Pro 7000, 84 Pinnarello Treviso NR, 84 Trek 520, 88 Project KOM, 90 Trek 750, 91 Trek 930

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 184 Post(s)
Liked 204 Times in 142 Posts
IF Helicomatic then from Sutherland's at https://archive.org/details/sutherla...with-bookmarks

REAR HUBS – MULTI-SPEED FREEWHEEL
Ball Sizes
- 1/4" balk per side except the following:
ACS Pre-1983 9 - 15/64" balls per side
ACS 1983-current 9 - 1/4" balls per side
Maillard Helicomatic 1 3 - 5/32" balls per side
Schwinn Disc Brake 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour Cassette Hubs 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour XCD 1989 9 - 1/4" balls left side, 12 - 3/16" balk right side
__________________
Last new bike 1991

Last edited by dmark; 02-18-24 at 08:14 AM.
dmark is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 11:31 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,232
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3797 Post(s)
Liked 3,313 Times in 2,163 Posts
Originally Posted by ehcoplex
Alrighty... I pulled apart a Campy small-flange Gran Sport hub and tried the axle/cones/etc in the 700 shell and.. success. Spins smooth, no weirdness, etc. AFAIK, the cones on Campy GS hubs are the same as Record. Now I'm wondering if Campy cones changed much over the years, or if I can just get any Campy rear cones....
-----

slightly surprised to read this

at its initial launch the GS group employed Nuovo Tipo hubs

these have cones which are less precisely rectified than those of Record model hubs and they are not black oxide finished as the Record model ones are; they have a satin silver finish


-----
juvela is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 11:43 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela
-----

slightly surprised to read this

at its initial launch the GS group employed Nuovo Tipo hubs

these have cones which are less precisely rectified than those of Record model hubs and they are not black oxide finished as the Record model ones are; they have a satin silver finish


-----
Ah, you're right- the GS cones are silver. I must have been misremembering having read they were the same as Record. Though I'm assuming (yeah, yeah, I know) they're the same geometry as the Record.....?
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 11:46 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Brad L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Southeast TX
Posts: 612

Bikes: Several

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Liked 1,032 Times in 321 Posts
I've had to replace cones on Maillard hubs and found it relatively inexpensive to just buy another hub off Ebay. I've been lucky that the replacement hub had good cones, but it's risky.
__________________
My collection: 1947 Ciclo Piave, 1955 Liberia, 1969 Colnago Super, 1972 Legnano Olimpiade Record Specialissima, 1980 Mercian Vincitore, 1983 Gitane Interclub, 1985 Peugeot PGN10, 1986 Bianchi Vittoria, 1987 De Rosa Professional, 1989 Vitus 979, 1990 Bianchi Axis, 1990 Specialized Sirrus, 2001 Colnago Dream B-Stay, 2007 Trek 1000






Brad L is offline  
Likes For Brad L:
Old 02-17-24, 12:33 PM
  #13  
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2023
Posts: 480
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 426 Times in 227 Posts
Not attempting to derail the thread, but thought to add an observation. Through the years and having Helicomatic early vs later hubs, there's a difference in the bb's sizes. It's been awhile and I don't have the details off hand.
chain_whipped is offline  
Old 02-17-24, 02:04 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
Well a bit of scrounging around yields up these front hubs and perhaps a rear cone from an old French hub.

Plenty of front hubs available.

This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 02-18-24, 07:14 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Well a bit of scrounging around yields up these front hubs and perhaps a rear cone from an old French hub.

Plenty of front hubs available.

This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
Hmm, I was going to pick up some cones on eBay- someone's got some NOS for $15- but if you've got some Tipos that are good, let me know. I've got an axle and spacers, but could use locknuts, too.
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 02-18-24, 12:07 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
ehcoplex ,
Well open up yer wallet and let me rummage around in there!

No spokes were injured or damaged in the making of this sacrifice.

This is the part where your cash is going to start flowing freely in my direction!
Har! Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 02-18-24, 12:09 PM
  #17  
Old fart
 
JohnDThompson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,769

Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3579 Post(s)
Liked 3,388 Times in 1,926 Posts
Originally Posted by chain_whipped
Not attempting to derail the thread, but thought to add an observation. Through the years and having Helicomatic early vs later hubs, there's a difference in the bb's sizes. It's been awhile and I don't have the details off hand.
True, and there was a "700" model helicomatic hub; it uses 13 5/32" balls on each side. The axle thread is also non-standard: 10mm x 0.75mm

JohnDThompson is offline  
Old 02-18-24, 04:37 PM
  #18  
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
 
dddd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,172

Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.

Mentioned: 132 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1560 Post(s)
Liked 1,279 Times in 851 Posts
I believe there are other high-end hubs using the .75-pitch threading made by Maillard, not just Helicomatic!

And Roval hubs had that threading too, the hubs being made by Maillard.

I do recall tearing into at least one of Maillard's high-end hubs with the 10x.75 axle, must have been a 700 or perhaps Trophee, but a top model hi-flange hub.

The finer threading makes for a stronger axle and reduces any tendency for threaded parts to loosen.
dddd is offline  
Old 02-21-24, 04:04 PM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
miamijim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 13,954
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 413 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 109 Times in 78 Posts
I have a huge stash of Maillard/Normandy NOS axles with cones. Just canít remember where it is 🙄
miamijim is offline  
Old 02-21-24, 05:27 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Well, I cannabalized a Shimano hub in the B-O-C Mad Honk sent me and I think it's going to work. I don't doubt there's probably some slight mismatch with the radius of the cones and the cups, but it feels good and smooth. Now to see if 3D printing the missing dust caps works...
ehcoplex is offline  
Old 02-21-24, 06:51 PM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
You gonna tell me that the Shimano dust cap didn't fit into the Maillard hub shell! What were those guys thinking by not standardizing parts for interchangeable option. Har! MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Likes For Mad Honk:
Old 02-22-24, 08:58 AM
  #22  
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,469

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7325 Post(s)
Liked 2,409 Times in 1,411 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
My experience with vintage French hubs is bad, in that the cones are made of soft material and pit a lot faster than Campy hubs, even the lesser Campy hubs such as Tipo and Victory/Triomphe.
It depends on the model hub. Maillard 700 hubs had high quality races and cones. The same company made the ubiquitous (at the time) Atom and Normandy Sport. Those cones were crappy.

Campagnolo Nuovo Tip (which means "new type") hubs had good cones but stamped races. But the hubs were pretty durable overall.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

ďWhen man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.Ē ó Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 02-22-24, 10:15 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
So it seems my sending copious amounts of "Crap" to ehcoplex has resulted in another lost sale of Campy goodness! Now he needs to step up and show us pictures of his "Hack" for the repair, and give all of the gory details of the transplant. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 02-23-24, 07:30 PM
  #24  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 2,927

Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1293 Post(s)
Liked 1,871 Times in 1,125 Posts
Well I started cleaning the two front hubs today that were pulled out of the 27" rims. The 700 foil ink washed right off the hubs! Luckily Greg at Cyclomondo makes replacement foils. So I am ordering from Australia to restore the hub. I guess this a PSA to be very careful when cleaning the hubs. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is offline  
Old 02-24-24, 05:24 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,683

Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 759 Post(s)
Liked 1,560 Times in 756 Posts
Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Well I started cleaning the two front hubs today that were pulled out of the 27" rims. The 700 foil ink washed right off the hubs! Luckily Greg at Cyclomondo makes replacement foils. So I am ordering from Australia to restore the hub. I guess this a PSA to be very careful when cleaning the hubs. Smiles, MH
Yeah, same thing happened to me when I cleaned my hubs. I caught it before the label was completely gone, but it ain't as nice and shiny as it once was.....
ehcoplex is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.