I would like to see documented scientific proof that steel rides "better" than aluminum or that anyone can really feel the difference between materials when they are of the same design geometry and stiffness; such as typical racing bicycles.

I own many race geometry designed bicycles built with steel and aluminum frames and they feel the same to me. I notice the most difference in the ride feeling when changing tires or adjusting tire inflation.

Jim,

I definitely feel the difference between the rides of my SuperCourse - 531 straight gauge in the main triangle - and my Fuji "The Finest" - double-butted chrome-moly throughout. The Fuji is a little more upright, and a little larger, but I can definitely feel it flex when the going gets a bit uneven, whereas the SuperCourse doesn't have that springyness to it. I can also feel the difference when I accelerate quickly. The Fuji has a little bit of resiliency that I don't feel in the SuperCourse. Given that the SuperCourse is a sport touring bike, and the Fuji is a racing bike, I'd expect the opposite if geometry were the primary determiner.

Riding Aluminum is like night and day for me - compared to the Fuji especially.

Certainly, one can make adjustments with tire selection and inflation that will affect the ride and handling, and one can make Aluminum feel smoother by replacing the fork, but there is a distinct difference. I'm not quite certain that how one would measure it scientifically, and I don't really have a burning desire to provide proof positive for others. I'm attuned to the difference, I can certainly feel it, and that's enough for me.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm being a self-righteous grump, but I've learned to accept that some people can sense things that others can't. There are people who can hear noises that I can't. There are people who can feel when it's the precise instanct to snap the rod forward to cast a fly (which I can't do). There are people (lots of people) who can smell things that I simply can't. I can see Magic Eye pictures that plenty of other people can't seem to manage. Some sensations we can learn and improve, while others we can't. We are all different (as are the rides of different frame materials ;)).

Z

Well since I do not believe that humans can tell the difference of vertical deflection in frame materials of the same design through 2 inches of rubber tires, Padded Saddles with Titanium rails, handlebar tape, and other aluminum and carbon materials throughout contact points of the bicycle - I will leave you to your acute senses.

But another interesting comparison is within your statement about casting a Flyrod. I used to teach flycasting; perhaps I can help you with that ;)

But within the Flyfishing environment carbon is considered to be very fast when casting and very sensitive when fishing, sensing the slightest vibrations. But in the bicycle enviroment carbon is said dampen vibration. Perhaps it's both by design?

I sense much marketing hype and people justifing their personal preferences.

1. Some of the deflection has a horizontal component to it.
2. Different materials have different resonances, and even the same materials' resonances can vary based on thickness, span between supports, etc.
3. Have definitely felt waves occurring and being damped by the frame on the Fuji.
4. Never felt that on any other bike I've ridden (have never ridden another "quality" steel frame, or a CF frame, but have ridden many other steel and several Aluminum frames). Would not have the basis for making the statement had I not ridden this bike.
5. I went over a freakin' groundhog back in May on the bike for crying out loud. I expected disaster, but only got two mild bumps and a little bit of deceleration.
6. You could put me on a stream with a million starving fish and top-of-the-line fishing gear, and I'd still end up eating cheese wiz and crackers for supper.

Regards,

Z

My 84 Trek 660 with Reynolds 531cs tubing in it's old racing form weighed 20.5 pounds, but thats with steel forks which would drop a pound by going CF, plus you could lose more weight if you replaced seat post, bars cranks etc with CF parts. 84 Trek 760 with Reynolds 531c and pro tubing was about a 1/2 pound lighter then mine, and Ishawata had 017 tubing that was even lighter then the 531pro.

When I broke down my Nashiki International for refinishing I weighed the frame, no fork. It was 4.85 lbs on a digital postal scale.