Fillet brazed Schwinn models
 

I have just spent the past couple of hours researching these models mostly with information from Sheldon Brown with an eye to perhaps owning one at some point in the future and would appreciate it if someone could confirm that I have this right, ignoring components there are two basic frames the lighter weight chrome molybdenum models and heavier gas pipe models as we would call them if they were English, do Americans use that term? I would be more interested in the lighter models which I understand were made between 1962 and 1978 and it sounds like the 1970s models were more desirable.

I understand the lighter models are the

Superior,
Super Sport,
Sports Tourer,
Sport Limited,

The heavier models are the

Continental,
Racer,
Varsity,
Suburban,
New World,

Is that correct? They do come up for sale here occasionally and I would like to know what I am looking at when they do.

The heavier Schwinns were called “electro-forged”. They’re not usually called “gas pipe” unless you want to be insulting. Still very heavy, very durable bikes.

I’ve said a few times that the only things to survive a nuclear war would be Schwinn Varsity’s and Keith Richards.

I have a Superior, a Super Sport, and a Suburban. Only the Suburban is stock.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ohpv/a...7642470085394/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ohpv/a...7670249022375/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ohpv/a...7720297311905/

Thanks for your reply Jeff, three good looking bikes there and I do like the updates you have carried out, do they use different bottom brackets? One looks like a BSA thread and the other looks sleeved down from something bigger.

Yes the term gas pipe is not exactly complimentary, I own a couple of frames made of it, Raleigh call it high tensile or 2030.

The bikes on the second list are not fillet brazed. They are Schwinn's electroforged frames. They look similar to the naked eye, but are not hand brazed and are made with heavier "gas pipe" tubing.

Schwinn also had fillet brazed ATBs in the 80s

The Cimarron was fillet brazed in the front and lugged in the rear

The 87-88 High Sierra was fillet brazed in the front but TIG welded in the rear.
(The 87 High Sierra also came in Black Chrome)

While I'm not certain, I believe that the early New Worlds (1939-40s) were also fillet brazed, yet were made with the heavier gauge, smaller diameter, tubing.

Also, the '30s through early '50s Superiors were Chromoly tubing and fillet brazed.

Small cog some of the models (1960's Superior, Super Sport, and '79 Sport Limited-IIRC) utilized one-piece cranksets. Their bottom brackets had pressed in cups for the bearings. There is an adjustable cone and lock nut on the non drive-side of the crankset. The Sports Tourer and late '70s Superior utilized traditional cranksets and BB and had British threading.

I see you are from England. The second batch you listed might have closer riding dynamics to something like your Raleigh 3 speeds. They can be improved greatly with aluminum wheels, but the general frame geometry relegates them to relaxed general purpose daily transportation. The first batch has more upright seat and headtube angles and the ride is more lively. They are still pleasant general purpose bikes with all day comfort but feel more fun vs utilitarian.
Finding one of the first batch would be more representative of the idea of the fillet brazed intent and perhaps be different from what you may be used to. With regard to the one piece crank, there are adapters to allow the use of a three piece crank. I personally like the one piece crank for many reasons but on one of mine I adapted a BMX crank spider to it to allow the use of lighter 110 bcd chainrings and gearing changes.

Early Schwinn lightweights are a separate category from the 1960s-70s era derailleur bikes. The model names and constructions periodically changed. For example, the pre-war and post-war Superiors are different bikes. The Continental started as a high end fillet brazed bike with cr-mo tubing. Etc. These earlier bikes are very much English-inspired and often use English equipment.

1938-41:
New World: Fillet brazed ("seamless tubing")
Superior: Fillet brazed (cr-mo)
Paramount: Lugged and brazed (high-end)

1942-45 (limited production, electroforging begins with certain frame joints):
New World: combination of welded and brazed (basic steel)
Superior: fillet brazed (cr-mo)
Paramount: lugged and brazed (high-end)

1946-50s:
New World and World: primarily welded (basic steel)
Racer: primarily welded (basic steel)
Superior: primarily welded (basic steel, cottered cranks)
Traveler: primarily welded (basic steel)
Continental: fillet brazed (cr-mo)
Club or Clubman: fillet brazed (cr-mo)
Paramount: lugged and brazed (high-end)

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the Superior model is one with a long off-again, on-again history

following a hiatus it relaunched as a 1962 and was once again withdrawn following 1963

it relaunched as a 1976 model and was again discontinued following the 1978 model year

the Super Sport model has the fillet brazed chro-moly frame and forged ends but has the Schwinn one-piece chainset

the Sports Tourer model launched as a 1971

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since you are located in the UK one detail you might want to be aware of if that the seat tubes on these are slightly oversize - larger than 28.6mm

this means that Schwinn had special front gear mechs made for them by Huret

finding one of these special mechs separately in the UK could take some hunting

some home mechanics here on the forum have written that they were able to adapt a standard front mech designed for 28.6mm tube to fit; have not done it meself so cannot comment

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one minor advantage of the Superior model of 1976-1978 is that it lacks the heavy Schwinn steel brazed-on propstand

AFAIK it is the only model you mention which has this plus


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The only downside is that, being in England, and if weight is a concern, you may find many of these Schwinn bikes disappointing compared to British-made sporty offerings. Britain's established culture of adult cycling for transportation and sport was stronger than the US. In the US, durability was the chief concern because most bikes were ridden by children or students prior to the bike boom. The goal in the US was to graduate up to a car as soon as possible. Schwinn made some great bikes, but the emphasis was durability before weight savings on the vast majority of models (not all perhaps, but most). I love old Schwinn three speed bikes, but lightweight they are not (mostly). Variety is the spice of life, as the old saying goes.

For early bikes, I'd look for a 1938-41 Superior or a 1946-55 Continental. For mid-bikes, a 1960s Super Sport (the sparkling 1960s paints are nice). For late bikes, a 1970s Sports Tourer or 1970s Superior.

Yes, there are two different bottom bracket shells that were used on the Schwinn fillet-brazed frames:

Standard English-threaded shell used on the Superior and Sports Tourer.

”Ashtabula” shell for one-piece steel cranks, used on the Super Sport. This accepts the same bearings and crank as the electro-forged models.

On my Super Sport, I used a set of BMX adapter rings to change it to a threaded BB. The photos show the sequence of the installation. I ended up using parts from 7 different manufacturers here… because I could. This is what happens when old bike mechanics get bored.

Minding Minor Matter
 

The post-Wastyn Chicago cage brazed Superiors of the early 1960s, rechristened "Super Sport" in 1964, were also bereft of the one pound solid steel kickstand.
They were more finely finished, cro-mo throughout, boasted a fully chromed fork, and sported forged dropouts, (albeit Huret). The steerer was also standard sized.
In 1963 or so Titan started engraving their stem with "Super" and the bars in 1964 were twice engraved with "Sport" so looking down the rider reads "Sport Super Sport," perhaps making it one of the few Schwinns with what some call "panto?"
Of note, which no one seems to note, these plain gauged cro-mo frames were internally reinforced with sleeves, essentially way overbuilt butting, which makes for a very robust and heavier frame.
These '60s frames are perhaps the most desirable?

The Sport Limited came with a special spindle which still made use of the large Bottom Bracket and its huge indestructible bearings and races housed in the easy to adjust bottom bracket assembly. Finally found one for a reasonable price. It's roughly 127.5 mm wide allowing for a variety of different cranks, though its taper is designed for the Nervar crankset.

Was fortunate enough to find a '64 "Sport Super Sport" which was nearly all original except for the paint and saddle, but oddly had to buy a same sized '73 Super Sport first so have had the chance to compare the two years side by side.

Riding the Sport Super Sport is fun. Had a Sports Tourer once, and it too was fun.

The electro-forged models...Varsity, Continental, Suburban and others...were marketed to teens. Schwinn guaranteed the electro-forged frames for life. The bikes were also built to a price point. That's why they were built in that manner...very heavy, thick-walled, low-carbon tubes that could be welded on automated machinery. The bikes are heavy but indestructible. I believe a Varsity in stock form weighs around 40 pounds.

The fillet-brazed bikes were 'light weight' models. The fillet-brazed bikes were marketed to adults. The brazed models sold in the 60s-70s used slightly oversize tubes. The cheapest fillet brazed model used a non-threaded BB that took an Ashtabula style one-piece solid crank like the cheaper elctro-forged models. The cheapest brazed model also used a bolt on derailleur hanger. The more expensive filled brazed bikes used a threaded BB and Huret dropouts and hanger. The fillet brazed models came in at a 'light' 28 pounds from the factory. "Light' being relative, seeing as how it was 12 pounds less than the electro-forged models. The fillet brazed models never sold in huge numbers, while the electro-forged bikes sold in the millions. First off they didn't look all that different from the electro-forged bikes. Secondly, the fillet brazed bikes cost a lot more. In 1978, the last year for brazed bikes, a Superior listed for around $275...$1,400 inflation adjusted.

I've got bikes build on both an electro-forged frame and a Superior frame.

The Varsity retains it's original hubs, but I laced new aluminum rims/spokes to them. Original solid fork and original headset are retained, although I replaced the caged bearings with loose bearings. Original brakes are retained but I installed Tektro aero levers and interrupter levers. I tossed the steel handlebars and forged steel stem and replaced them with aluminium bar and stems from a Continental. Word to the wise: The aluminium bars found on Continentals and fillet brazed bikes were made by GB in the UK. Very high quality and the bars to have if you like rando bars. I tossed the once piece crank and used a three piece crank adapter. The crank set is an old Shimano 105 double I had lying around. The original front derailleur is retained but I replaced the rear with a Suntour VGT I had in the parts bin. For shifting I used friction barcons from Rivendell. I replaced the tired old freewheel with a new Shimano unit. I tossed the rock-hard 'Schwinn Approved' saddle and replace it with one from planet bike. This bike has a rear rack I use with Arkel grocery panniers. I ride this bike to the market in nice weather. I can easily load 50 pounds of stuff on this rig and it takes it with out complaint...no creaking or wobbles or anything. As a utility bike it's great and I use it regularly.

I bought a Superior as a NIB bare frame-set from a bike shop that was going out of business. The Superior is mostly a mix of older Campy stuff. I've got Sun CR-18 rims laced to Campy hubs. Drive-train is 9 speed double...also Campy. The rear drops had to be 'cold-set' from 126 to 130mm. I had to make an adapter to fit the Campy derailleur to the Huret hanger. The head tube on the fillet brazed bikes use the same oversized headset found on the electro forged bikes. I had a machine shop fabricate adapters for the headset and I installed a standard 1 inch Campy. For bars I used the same GB bars I used on the Varsity. Brakes are Tektro 'long-reach' dual pivots. The fillet brazed frames are sized for 27 inch wheels. Going to 700c means that you can't use any modern Campy brakes.

Haven't read every word of this thread but has anyone mentioned the Paramount tandem and the Town and Country? They were fillet brazed. Fun fact, on the T&C the fillets were covered in lead solder (!) and the lead was then smoothed, apparently cheaper than smoothing the brass fillets (more commonly called bronze in England). I also have a Twinn tandem, a cheaper model, with most of the joints fillet-brazed, though not particularly well! It has held together for over 50 years though, so it's good enough.

Also the Excelsior (mine was from the '30s) was fillet brazed, as presumably most any Schwinn made before their uniqure welding method was invented.

I put a Campy headset in my Schwinn Twinn, partly for laffs but also I was replacing the fork and the new fork had a Campy-sized crown race seat, so I was going to have to shim something somewhere. My fix was to slide an entire Reynolds 531 head tube down inside the Twinn head tube — perfect fit! I could have sliced off two rings from the 531 tube but this way proper alignment between top and bottom was assured, and one less hacksaw cut! It's not as if we worry about the additional weight — the bike weighs 80 lb and I'm not joking, that's actual. It also allowed me to solve two other problems, namely the frame size is too small and I wanted the bars up higher, and the fork I was using had a long steerer without enough threads to fit the frame as it was. So I just left the 531 head tube long by a few cm. Brazed it to the top and bottom of the Twinn head tube to immobilize it, and sprayed the braze area with some rattle-can paint et voilà, a Twinn that's actually rideable and quite useful. We use it for grocery shopping, going out to dinner or to friends' houses, picnics in the park etc. The new fork I put on is tubular (as all good forks are — sadly not the Twinn whose fork was borderline un-rideable) and it has cantilever studs, so we have one good brake now. The original brake was a wimpy aluminum sidepull long enough to reach around a balloon tire. More like a "brake-shaped object" than an actual brake, plus the rear is a worn-out Atom drum brake, maybe even weaker than the front sidepull. Now we can ride down hills without uncontrollably gaining speed all the way down!

BTW for anyone wanting a more modern headset in an old Schwinn, you don't need a 531 head tube, that's just what I had handy. Any 1-1/4" tube can work, though if it's too thick it'll need more reaming.. Best is to get a piece of Cr-Mo, which comes in .035" wall, which is perfect for Campy and most any other normal (not Schwinn or BMX) headset. Cut two rings if you care about weight, or just one long piece as I did. Brazing isn't necessary, you can fix it in place with Loctite. They make special formulations made for mounting loose-fitting cylindrical parts like bearings, and the stuff is ungodly strong. I forget the formula number but someone here will remember...

I don't know anything about "modern" Campy brakes but you can definitely use old Record, the ones that came out in the '60s. If a Drop-bolt (made by Campy or certain after-market versions) won't reach, you can make a drop plate, a simple fabrication job that most any home handyman can make if you can hacksaw and drill a couple pieces of steel. I'm sure they've been discussed here but anyone can ask me for instructions if you don't know what I mean.

Quite a few years back, I became somewhat obsessed with the fillet-brazed Schwinns and threw myself into a Super Sport project. Originally lemon yellow, a sparkly blue powdercoat, replacement decals, a Truvativ BB adapter, and a few various mods (including removing the kickstand) added up to a 5-speed townie with upright bars and a stem shifter:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4be21f43bd.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...860786d672.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5f553fcbe4.jpg

The ride was slow but comfortable; I eventually sold it on CL to a very enthusiastic buyer. My itch had been scratched.

Plus rats and cockroaches.

Last time I saw a drop-bolt on eBay it went for something close to $200. Yes, I'm aware of the DIY option. The Tektro long-reach, looks good, works good and isn't expensive. I took the easy way out.

That is wonderful and cool as heck. :thumb:

IIRC, the Sports Tourer also used a non-standard headset head tube fittings (also found on some BMX headsets); 32.7mm rather than 30.2mm (ISO) or 30.0mm (JIS).

Yes. In the last millennium I installed a Chris King headset on my first Superior so I could install a “normal” fork and handlebar stem. (22.2mm inside diameter instead of the Schwinn 0.833” ID.) That bike eventually got cantilever brakes and a first generation Shimano Deore cranks.

Nothing I do is normal.

I mentioned my way of shimming the head tube down to take normal cups, but there's another option, a 1-1/8" ("OS") headset where the cups have been machined down to fit the Schwinn/BMX size head. Then you can use a fork with a 9/8" steerer, if that's a plus for you. I opted to stick with 1" steerer, so I didn't buy the modded headset. I forget who makes it, but they start with a standard headset (steel cups) and either lathe-turn or grind down the spigot that goes into the head bore. Anyone here know who makes those (or made, if no longer available)?

Like this?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/266728062574

The seller says it’s a Chris King. It’s not clear that it comes that way from them or if the seller does his own machining.

There’s also this dialog on another forum:
https://bmxmuseum.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=732071
so it appears to be relatively do-able.

My only objection to this setup is that I like the appearance of the stock Schwinn fork, especially when the color matches the frame. If it weren’t for that, I’d be converting my fillet-brazed Schwinns yesterday.

That's not the one I remember, it had steel cups. That ebay item looks decent though.

But there's no way it's a King,. The price is too low and the surface finish is nowhere near nice enough, unless King has a new line of Chinese-made headsets.
I mean it's probably just fine, but a King has a jewel-like finish and a stratospheric pricetag.

This is what I used: Headset Reducer

This thing is used for reducing a steer tube that takes 1 1/8 headset to 1 inch. The Schwinn headset tube is smaller than 1 1/8. I bought the reducers and took them to a machine shop and had the OD turned down to 32.6mm from 34mm. At the time I could not find a ready to go reducer to install 1 inch into BMX. Maybe someone makes one now? I popped in the modded reducers and then pressed in cups from a standard 1 inch headset.

I have a Continental that is half electro forged and half filled brass brazed with cromo tubes and head tube. What? you say? Not your regular model, it is a 28" frame. Only made in limited numbers occasionally. The rear triangle is the standard EF construction, the front is oversized cromo and brass brazed. I have two guesses for this. The extra extra tall frame needed stronger or larger diameter tubing to keep from flexing beyond acceptable. It was pretty common for some builders to use thicker wall Reynolds or Columbus in larger frames to try to stiffen them up. Second is it was too large to fit the EF equipment at the factory.

The standard EF frames were made with 1" diameter main tubes. Note that most lugged frame bikes of that era used 1 & 1/8" seat & down tubes and 1" top tubes. This conti has 1 & 1/8" down tube. I had the bike apart during a conversion and there are no seams inside the tubes that you get with "gas pipe" manufacturing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/1515/2...c9315f1d_b.jpg

I also have a Schwinn Sport Limited. Story i heard was there were a couple thousand frames produced that sat around for years and were finally painted and built and sold.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...69de8917_b.jpg

The Electro Forge construction was started some time in the late 1950s and was intended to replicate the look of the fillet brazed frames but built much faster, and therefore cheaper. I have also had some post Chicago factory closing EF bikes made by Murray. The Chicago factory closed up in 1983 and they sent the ef equipment to Murray in Kentucky where the made EF Schwinns for another year or two. One that I have has some bizarre bottom bracket treatment that makes me think that particular piece of equipment didn't make the trip or broke down. The catalogs are quite incomplete during the transition from making bikes in Chicago to outsourcing from other sites.

As pointed out already there were other fillet brass brazed models. There are some one-offs made by Schwinn for family members or by special dealer requests.