Help identifying a frameset type/age
 

I’m looking for some info across several groups and hoping someone here might have an answer.

I have a frameset that I am looking to clean up and repaint, restore. I do not have any history other than it might be Italian. That’s pretty broad. I took some pictures of the lugs and other details. The foil stickers that are on it are I never asked to whether they are original. Some of them look like they were put on after market. The headset has no name. The pump brackets do not have a name. The seat collar is Unknown whether it’s a name or design. If it’s a name, it look like it may start with a C, Unknown second letter, S 3rd. But that’s kind of conjecture because it’s Unknown not that is for sure. There is no serial number near the headset anywhere, none on the sheet cluster and none on the bottom bracket.

it’s a confusing frame because it has chrome logs and chrome bits on it, but it also has a plate break bridge and a keystone plate. So it almost looks like it’s a quality frame, but then again it’s got these weird pieces other details. So I’m not sure about the age, or make.

Please look it over and let me know if anyone has ideas on how to possibly date or identify.

Thank you in advance
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...99fb3fbe8.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...279fe727f.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1aa826ed4.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...18e247014.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d141cd5e2.jpeg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9be43ff4d.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...067b38549.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...223036d8d.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e5826ad21.jpeg

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thank you for sharing this interesting puzzle

very fine job with the imagery

frame bits -

head lugs: Agrati "SPORT" ART. 000.80050/E/U
upper is Nr. 000.8054
lower is Nr. 000.8053

seat lug: Agrati "SPORT" Nr. 005.8059

bottom bracket shell: Agrati "SPORT" Nr. 005.8057

fork crown (under the cap): probably Agrati "SPORT" Nr. 026.8058; should you have occasion to disassemble headset you could remove cap to facilitate specific ID

plate style chainstay & seat stay bridges: Agrati

chainstay stop & top tube housing stops: Campag Nr. 621

dropouts: Agrati Nr. 000.8002

fork ends: Agrati Nr. 000.8010

drive side derailleur cable guide: Campag Nr. 663

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other bits:

front & rear brake hangers: Balilla (Giovannia Galli S.p.A.)
OEM brakeset may have been Balilla centrepull:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...347552b6cb.jpg

pump holder set: REG (Rampinelli) Ortellli

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9b749a8e62.jpg

fixed bottom bracket cup: OMG

headset appears Agrati ART. 209.3071

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serial:

one spot to check is side of seat tube
sometimes struck so lightly that paint can mostly fill it in

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date estimate: later fifties to mid-sixties

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marque: good to remember that most Italian retail cycle shops have a house brand, there are thousands of these, if cycle were produced for one of these it would be quite challenging to identify

the most likely manner for a house branded machine to show up in PA would be if it were brought home by a traveler or member of the military

one major Italian producer who did a tremendous amount of private-labelling manufacture was Chiorda

do not wish to assert a manufacturer

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Just wondering at the bridges on chainstays and seatstays. Could there have been fenders and a kickstand involved?

I can’t help you with the make. It does have some interesting lugs. I was looking at your last picture and it looks as through the lug has started to separate from the top tube. I’d look into that before going too far restoring it because it could be a deal breaker.

I didn’t even notice that until I looked at that picture. I’m gonna have to go look it over and be sure there’s not something worse going on up there.

wow. Thank you for all of the information!
it should be an interesting build. Gonna be doing a lot of cleaning before it sees any paint.

out of curiosity, I’m gonna have to look into the cost on those brakes and other bits that might’ve been common during that era.

this is just one of about 10 frames. I recently acquired and there’s several I have to ID. But once again, thank you very much cause that is very informative and definitely information that I’ll lock down in my mind so I recognize things in the future.


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forgot to give model information you inquired about

it "appears" it might be a half step or so up from the very base

the combination of two plate style bridges and the "bullet" seat stay caps suggest a low model

two details which bring it up slightly are the true three-piece head and the chrome plating

a very bottom model would have a bulge-formed head and no chrome

one easy check to determine frame tubing quality is to measure the seat post diameter

ordinary calibre high tensile frame tubing will have a seat post diameter of either 25.4mm or possibly 26.0mm

quality plain gauge tubesets for Italian machines tend to begin at 26.2mm seat post diameter

it does not merit a big investment as it would be easy to put more in than what it would be worth when completed

appreciate that if you approach project out of hobby interest this is a secondary consideration

two details which might possibly advance your identification inquiry would be if you could post images of the foil transfer remains and the seat binder collar marking

hope this helps a bit ;)

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My first thought was Chiorda as well. Pennsylvania location = not far from New York City = cheap shipping from Stuyvesant bike shop/distributor.

Sal Corso, the owner, brought in his own line of private-label Corso bikes, probably sourced from Chiorda. Here's a post in a previous Bike Forums thread with some neat historical details. (It's post 49, if that link doesn't bring you right there.)

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as recalled, Sal's Corso brand bicycles were produced for him by Cesare Rizzato...

or there may have been more than one provider...

if one examines the fork crown and seat stay treatment on a Corso the "family resemblance" to Atala quickly becomes apparent

the fittings comprising Corso cottered bottom bracket assemblies are marked "ATALA"

Rizzato performed a cessation of play about 1999-2000

rights to the Atala name went to a new owner; the other Rizzato owned marques seem to have been allowed to go dormant

these included Atlantica, Graziella (folders, exercycles & juveniles), Lygie, Maino, Radio

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Chiorda -

this is the only Italian manufacturer have seen to employ the Agrati plate style stay bridges on road models

there could easily be others am unaware of

the bridges are more commonly employed in Italy on utilitarian models such as porteurs and folders

plate style bridge use much scarcer in Italy than in Austria, Germany & the low countries

considered possibility that subject iron a Chiorda product. one thing which does not fit are the Campag Nr. 621 housing stops. at this level of bicycle Chiorda always seemed to employ stamped sheet bits. on models at this position Chiorda usually routed the rear brake cable under the top tube with guides and no stops.


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Tremendous help! Thank you! I have another mystery frame coming right up.

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side note on Chiorda for anyone interested...

this J.C. Penney machine of 1970 is an example of the very bottom Chiorda road model

bulge-formed head, no chrome, both bridges plate style



​​​​​​https://thecabe.com/forum/threads/jc...-italy.133427/


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possible original kitting mentioned above...

we of course do not know the cycle's exact ex-works kitting

here are a few plausible ideas in case of interest:

chainset would have been a cottered steel three-arm with a 116mm bolt circle

"usual suspects" makers include Agrati, Gnutti, Magistroni & Way-Assauto
since manufacturer selected Agrati for the headset one could argue they may have selected that maker for the chainset as well

pedals would very likely have been a model of Sheffield such as the 655 or the 663 model -

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc410f81d8.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...66a923cdf0.jpg

a step up would be the Sheffield model Nr. 659

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ceea7864ad.jpg

likely stem/bar set may have been the Ambrosio I-beam/girder or the 3TTT Tourist

several plausible choices for gear ensemble:

Campag Gran Sport

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...63ec506139.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b9c249ad97.jpg

Campag Valentino/Velox (possibly a bit late)

Huret Svelto

this was common to see on Italian machines at this level and this time, is what would use if my project as mechs work OK, are all metal and are less costly than Campag

as paired with a model 700 front mech -

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb8b505e55.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...934e57b27f.jpg

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It also resembles a Winthrop I had a few decades ago, circa 60's to 70's. It was similar to this but it was red/cream with half chrome forks and foil decals and Valentino drive train. Balilla brakes.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...09e35df317.png