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Simplex dropout date?
Greetings all... I have been given a bicycle that I rather like. I believe it probably late 60s but is anybody able to confirm when these dropouts were available please?
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19e2c04081.jpg |
velobase says "1940s" and has a picture of them from the 1953 catalogue.
(let's see the rest of it) |
Originally Posted by oneclick
(Post 23491343)
(let's see the rest of it) https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...29c49f539e.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f9d6f68bb9.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a0af76d58.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8712ae0fb5.jpg Lovely Phillipe stem, bars are toast https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9228f7a961.jpg Record? https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...680b66695b.jpg Modèle 48 |
The Campagnolo hub is Nuovo Tipo.
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The front high flange is a Pélissier, the nuovo tipo set I have are both high flange, did they do a low flange as well?
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance
(Post 23491412)
The front high flange is a Pélissier, the nuovo tipo set I have are both high flange, did they do a low flange as well?
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e654aa991f.jpg N.B. the Pélissier hub is arguably as high quality or better than the Nuovo Tipo hub, but finding a match might take a while. |
That Campy hub is different from the1265 in the catalog though. Maybe had the same name or even the same part #, but the one on the Payan is older, maybe much older. Note the spoke flange is offset further to the left on Payan, making for a wheel with more dish. That design was used then dropped by a few manufacturers. I guess they were trying for a wider bracing angle, but having it wider only on the left results in slack spokes on the left, short spoke lifetime, bad design.
If I had to bet on whether it was called "Nuovo Tipo" I'd bet No, I think this hub pre-dates that name. Maybe Vecchio Tipo? (That's a joke son.) Take good care of the parts on that bike, some are rare and sought-after. Not the rear mech which is later and common as dirt, but at a quick glance I spot a desireable saddle and h-bar stem, probably more. Frame looks pretty nice too. Needs a much older Simplex rear mech, not sure which, but one of the pull-chain type. A 5-4-3 would be too new, and anyway you can't afford one! Maybe a Juy 51 or Juy 59, TdF or Champion du Monde. Note the large outward offset built into the dropout, which puts the derailleur mounting point farther to the right than a moder straight-down hanger. That'll mess with modern mechs, preventing them from shifting as far inward toward low gear. Maybe you know otherwise, like maybe it works fine as shown? But my gues is you need a pull-chain type made for that offset dropout. EDIT: Oops I see it's on the low-gear sprocket in the pic, so that answers that. Only a 4-sp though, which is period-correct, but you may not be able to reach low on a 5-sp. Hey, can I get a pic of the front of the head tube? Based on other clues, I think it's old enough to have the earlier style of Nervex Pro, with sort of vampire fangs right in front on the headtube, instead of the more-famous whale-tail. Earlier-type Pro lugs went away by 54 or 55 I think, though it's always possible a builder took a while to work through a big pile of older lugs, so it doesn't date the frame by itself. The more I look the more I like this frame, it's a gem. |
Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23491867)
That Campy hub is different from the1265 in the catalog though. Maybe had the same name or even the same part #, but the one on the Payan is older, maybe much older. Note the spoke flange is offset further to the left on Payan, making for a wheel with more dish. That design was used then dropped by a few manufacturers. I guess they were trying for a wider bracing angle, but having it wider only on the left results in slack spokes on the left, short spoke lifetime, bad design.
If I had to bet on whether it was called "Nuovo Tipo" I'd bet No, I think this hub pre-dates that name. Maybe Vecchio Tipo? (That's a joke son.) Take good care of the parts on that bike, some are rare and sought-after. Not the rear mech which is later and common as dirt, but at a quick glance I spot a desireable saddle and h-bar stem, probably more. Frame looks pretty nice too. Needs a much older Simplex rear mech, not sure which, but one of the pull-chain type. A 5-4-3 would be too new, and anyway you can't afford one! Maybe a Juy 51 or Juy 59, TdF or Champion du Monde. Note the large outward offset built into the dropout, which puts the derailleur mounting point farther to the right than a moder straight-down hanger. That'll mess with modern mechs, preventing them from shifting as far inward toward low gear. Maybe you know otherwise, like maybe it works fine as shown? But my gues is you need a pull-chain type made for that offset dropout. EDIT: Oops I see it's on the low-gear sprocket in the pic, so that answers that. Only a 4-sp though, which is period-correct, but you may not be able to reach low on a 5-sp. Hey, can I get a pic of the front of the head tube? Based on other clues, I think it's old enough to have the earlier style of Nervex Pro, with sort of vampire fangs right in front on the headtube, instead of the more-famous whale-tail. Earlier-type Pro lugs went away by 54 or 55 I think, though it's always possible a builder took a while to work through a big pile of older lugs, so it doesn't date the frame by itself. The more I look the more I like this frame, it's a gem. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...751995911d.jpg Teeth https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...561decf531.jpg French bike serial number https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...aee2a9661d.jpg Offset shown more clearly https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...28f54a3e61.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a782e2ddc0.jpg 99. 4 https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...701afc79c6.jpg Nice brake release |
Fun bike, wind back the clock to the early 1960’s at least.
look at that front mechanism. shift levers no doubt exchanged later, early were natural plastic and definitely had a times up point. the drive side dropout… could even be late 50’s. |
Yep them's the early Pro lugs with the vampire fangs instead of whale tails. If you look at a hundred Nervex pro frames on average all 100 will be whale-tail -- yours are very rare.
I'm gonna go with early-'50s as my guess. If you're not very proficient at re-rounding the seatpost hole in the frame, bring it to someone good, it needs work but heavy-handed prying can ruin it. Don't mean to insult your ability, I just don't know you. Correct post size is likely 26.4. Obviously throw away that shim that's in there now! Check the Dural Forge brakes for oil holes at the pivots. It probably doesn't have them; they were only on very early brakes. |
Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23492046)
Yep them's the early Pro lugs with the vampire fangs instead of whale tails. If you look at a hundred Nervex pro frames on average all 100 will be whale-tail -- yours are very rare.
I'm gonna go with early-'50s as my guess. If you're not very proficient at re-rounding the seatpost hole in the frame, bring it to someone good, it needs work but heavy-handed prying can ruin it. Don't mean to insult your ability, I just don't know you. Correct post size is likely 26.4. Obviously throw away that shim that's in there now! Check the Dural Forge brakes for oil holes at the pivots. It probably doesn't have them; they were only on very early brakes. |
The poor thing is obviously filthy. What's the best to clean it carefully with, without spoiling the decals which look like they are exposed not lacquered over. As it's obviously original and 60 or so years old as it worth putting a 2K lacquer over it?
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Here are some catalog pages related to Simplex dropouts that I've collected over the years:
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7f22e0526b.jpg 1954 (DisraeliGears website) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...41c8e23633.jpg 1960 (DisraeliGears website) https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a64e7db6f2.jpg 1964 (source unknown) https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b515be957c.jpg 1971 (DisraeliGears website) It seems to me that the dropouts in question are the |
That there is some excellent info thank you very much! You are correct there are signs of the eyelets having been ground off. What I can't tell from the pictures is which ones are offset for the derailleur hanger. Mine are also very definitely marked Le Simplex, rather than LJ Simplex or Juy Simplex.
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance
(Post 23492311)
What I can't tell from the pictures is which ones are offset for the derailleur hanger. Mine are also very definitely marked Le Simplex, rather than LJ Simplex or Juy Simplex.
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Household degreaser. I think it's going to come up a treat. I'll post a separate thread about it when it's progressed a little.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...60c97f7fbc.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1897ae9c6a.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...66f26f3b3b.jpg |
Small update that makes me very happy. The freewheel is properly jammed onto the rear nuovo Tipo. I was going to swap the rims for some more appropriate non tubulars but then realized I have some early 70s wide flange nuovo tipos on clincher rims. Maybe 10 or 15 years too young but I think spot-on for the spirit of the animal!
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Originally Posted by MiloFrance
(Post 23497531)
Small update that makes me very happy. The freewheel is properly jammed onto the rear nuovo Tipo. I was going to swap the rims for some more appropriate non tubulars but then realized I have some early 70s wide flange nuovo tipos on clincher rims. Maybe 10 or 15 years too young but I think spot-on for the spirit of the animal!
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