NBD and the Unknown Road Bike
 

As the title suggests, I bought a road bike and I don't know what it is.

Per the ad, the frame is 531. According to the seller, that's what was engraved into (I think) the steerer tube. The frame was stripped of paint when he bought it, and he spray.bike'd it a flat blue. The rear dropouts are simplex, but threaded. I was thinking maybe a French frame, but he said that all the threads were English, so that's good. And, given that I only paid $195 for the whole bike, if the frame is gas-pipe garbage, which I don't think it is, the parts are worthy.

Anyhow, here's the bike:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...73881429b1.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...43853533a8.jpg

A nice parts-bin build, albeit with some questionable choices. (The Fizik Arione has all the makings of a first-class ass-hatchet, and the front wheel is uglier than homemade soap.) Weinmann 610s that need fiddled with and new pads. He re-cabled the bike before selling it, but the rear isn't dialed. Current gearing is 48/38 Biopace up front, 12-25 8-speed out back. The Sugino is drilled and tapped for a triple. I'm looking forward to the Biopace rings, I haven't spun a set since the late 80s. The overall gearing will need some rethinking, though... I'm old, and I live in the Bay Area. (The downside is that the toothy bits are all new.)

The bars are weird:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3766a94089.jpg

They're a flared dirt-drop bend, but sleeved 25.4 mm and made by Italmanubri. I did not know that such things existed, but it's neato that they do.

And here's the serial number. Without a country of origin, it's going to be hard to figure out, but what the hell, if anybody can figure it out, this bunch can!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9e627e82cf.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e4dbcc6f9a.jpg

The combination of 531 and Simplex and English threads has me thinking British, but I'm open to all ideas. One set of bottle braze-ons, shifter bosses backed with little diamonds, (like regular square boss bases, but turned 45 degrees.) Stamped, flat fork crown:


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b9398ba04a.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...383b1fcbd1.jpg

I'm also wondering what the piece of metal that looks to have been sleeved into the steerer tube is? Or do I need to try to get my (not much) money back, or order a fork from QBP?

Anybody who can help with ID, feel free to chime in. (Who am I kidding? It's C&V... y'all are gonna chime in like a medieval cathedral!)

--Shannon

I think I heard that in around 1983, Peugeot started going to English threads. I'm not arguing that this is a Peugeot, however. It looks nice, though.

My money is on the fork being a replacement.
Phil

Can't quite decipher your image; B1025?50

The serial # is B1025359.

Based on the braze-ons, (top tube cable guides, only one water bottle, shift bosses,) I'd guess late 70s to early 80s? Tire clearance looks like 700x32ish max. An inflated 30 hits the chainstay bridge when you try to remove it. The pads are in the middle of the slots, so likely not a 27-incher when new? Single eyelets front and rear. Seems sport-tourer-y, but I've only got a couple of miles on it, so I don't have a handle on the handling yet.

--Shannon

If I can't figure out the frame, maybe I'll have a sticker set made up, for that legendary Italian master of the framebuilder's craft, Houtha Hellanosa.

--Shannon

Adding to my own thread, because it's mine and I can.

Playing around with Ye Olde Geare Calculatore, it looks like an 8 speed 11-30 and 48/34 rings might be a win. The 118" 48x11 high gear is more than I need, but that's what gives the best spacing with a 34t inner. It's a 2.5-step alpine, with a 118" high and a 30.7" low on 700x30s. The 27t-rated 105 rear derailleur shouldn't be have problem with a 30, and the chain wrap is 33t, so well within the 37t capacity.

For even more fun, the Sugino VT crank is actually tapped for the triple, but that'll happen later, if it does. My Fuji is a 45/42/30 x 14-26 half-step + granny, and I like it a lot. But I built that drivetrain around a 1980 Superbe rear derailleur, so I had to break a bunch of rules to get low gears. I always wanted to try a wide-range compact double... a lot of people like them a lot.

The only bummer is that 34t Biopace rings don't exist, so I'll lose out on that, at least on the small ring. Oh well. I'll probably spend a lot of time in the 48 anyway, so I'll get to learn if I like Biopace. I've always wondered if I would.

--Shannon

Reinforcement sleeve in the steering tube is fairly common.
Clocking on it is a little off what most are. It also stops the quill plug from falling out of the tube.
Stem looks similar to what ended up on late run France built Motobecane. There are others here who know this stuff much better than I.
Agree on the fork being a probable replacement.

Pulling the stem may give hints, if it's original to the frame.

-D.S.

You can mix and match biopace and regular round chainrings. It's not a big deal.

What’s the seatpost size? English threads and simplex together are not a common combination.

I’ve picked up a Peugeot that had English bb jammed into Swiss threads.

Thanks for the input, y'all. I've got to go to the bike shop today anyway, so I'll check the seatpost. A French bike would tend to be a round number, no? (25.0, 27.0, etc?)

As to the stem, It's an SR, so presumably not original. Ditto (not Nitto) the seatpost... SR Laprade, baby! More broadly, I doubt that any of the parts are OG. Hell, the rear derailleur is an 11-speed RD-5800, and the front is an old Campy... and the less said about that front wheel, the better.

--Shannon

easy thing to check is the OD of the 3 main tubes (which if metric WILL be even mm, with some allowances for the paint thickness) but a FR seat POST will not necessarily be. If you do have (metric) 531 tubes the common sizes for a proper seat post should be 26.4 or 26.6.

The dark exposure on most of these pix makes it very hard to make out details but the H-bars are of a style many brands sold as "Radonneur" or "Tourist" and some folks really like them. There aren't too many British brands that used Simplex DOs and fewer still who would have factory-tapped the hangers so that's most likely aftermarket work

This detail makes no sense to me: "shifter bosses backed with little diamonds, (like regular square boss bases, but turned 45 degrees.)" if they are rotated 45 ° in relation to the down tube I don't know how you get those cable guides installed, which AFAIK have to fit on square boss bases.

Agreed that whatever the make (and I think with what may be Nervex DuBois head lugs this is gonna turn out to be FR) it's not the original fork...but maybe a Peugeot with ISO threading is the best guess so far

Since this is rapidly becoming the thread for All Things Related to the Unknown Road Bike, and since there are indeed New Things Related to the Unknown Road Bike, I will post them here.

First things first, the bike rides great. The frame has got some twang to it, even with my pathetic legs. (In my defense, I haven't ridden for well over a year, and I spent last October and half of November in the hospital.) I'm still dialing in the fit and feel, but I'm liking what I'm working with so far.

Next, accessories and add-ons. (Or, as shop rats call that stuff, "where the real money is.") Up front, we have a Velo Orange / Roadrunner Mini Rando Bag. Rackless, roomy, and relentlessly rectangular.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9470e25e46.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8cca769401.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3766a94089.jpg
The stabilizing bungee cords work really well. Even in the hooks, the only part of your anatomy that notices them is your eyes. A flap top would have been nice, for easier access while riding, but it would have probably added $50-60 to the price. As it is, 90 bucks for a MUSA bike bag is about as good as that's gonna get... I'll live with the zipper.

Also added were a good-sized seat bag, multi-tool, pump, tube, and patch kit. (I splurged the extra 4 bucks for the Hobson-Zingo, cuz I like the tin.)

Then, the pedals. As mentioned above, the pedals I got with the bike were hot-n-cold running garbage. A vast, desiccated, alluvial plain of suck. Those things are now on their final journey, back to the home they never should have left... the recycling plant. They have been replaced with these, which very much do not suck:


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e596445728.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e48266815b.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5e47fe1c3b.jpg

Crank Bros Stamp 1 Gen 2 Large. 60 bucks worth of grippy, plasticy, enormous, foot-cradling goodness. How enormous, you may ask? Well, those are size 13s for comparison. (The official dimensions are 114x111mm, but I think the shoe helps visualize the size. They're huge.) As to the grippiness, I think I'm going to take out some pins. Out of the box, they hold onto your foots like a Swiftie with the last concert ticket.

Lastly, the plans.

As mentioned, the gearing is gonna have to go. 48/38 x 12-25 isn't going to melt any ice, not with Bay Area hills and 52-year-old legs. Since the rear derailleur is actually an RD-5800 11-speed, with a 32t max cog, I'm going to go with a 12-32 out back, and 48/34 in front. With the 8-speed 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32, this gives 16 non-overlapping 2.5-step gears from 108 to 29 inches. 13 to 17% spacing, and if I want to get fancy with double shifts, I've got 12 in the middle with 6-8% gaps.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to want a taller stem. Maybe a bit longer, too. More miles and improved fitness needed here. The bars aren't going anywhere... I like 'em a lot. I think I'll play with the lever body angles a bit... these bars have a lot more flare than I'm used to, so I'm not sure what I'm going to like best. The clamp angle of the bars is likewise in flux... too steep at the ramps when I got it, maybe a bit too flat (ends of bars pointed downward) now. All that new bike tweakery.

The saddle is not a win. I think the bike's too big for a Brooks... they sit tall on the post, and I don't have a ton of seatpost already. I think I'll be looking out for a Terry Butterfly or an Avocet Air O2. Preferably with Ti rails, of course. Other, wider sports saddles will also be considered, of course.

The brakes need help. They work, but the rear cable hanger doesn't have a threaded housing stop, plus it moves every time I tighten the seatpost clamp. (Which bolt is also a bit of a mess.) This changes the brake adjustment, causing the pads to rub. So, a new rear hanger, new pads front and rear, (probably Kool-Stop Continentals,) and maybe a new straddle hanger as well, plus much gnashing of teeth and rending of cloth, and the brakes should be good to go. I've never really messed with centerpulls before, so this should be fun.

--Shannon

Also, since the is the Unknown Road Bike, it seems destined to be bestickerated. To that end, I took this cool sticker that Adam from Calling in Sick magazine hooked me up with when I bought an issue:


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...5da9d88f89.jpg

Et, voila... instant headbadge! (Also, Adam is a cool dude with a cool 'zine, and you should check him out!)

Additional bestickerings to follow. And this reveals a downside to the spray.bike flat finish paint... stickers don't stick to it. I had to use nail glue (a thicker cyanoacrylate) to get them to stop lifting up at the edges. S'ok... it looks cool.

--Shannon

Additional Geometrical Details:

Seat tube: 23" / 58 cm, CTC
Top Tube: 22.5" / 57 cm, CTC
Chainstays: 16.5" / 42 cm, center of BB to center of skewer, wheel pulled all the way back.

Which, along with the eyelets, would tend to confirm the bike's sport-touring-ness. I've got no clue how to measure angles and such, so the rest of the geometry shall remain mysterious.

--Shannon

For measuring frame angles I use a free phone app called Angle Meter. Just hold your phone against the tubes et voilá!

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ec0fa1593a.png

It's a very good thing, (for you,) that I cannot bill you for any of the time that I will now and forever more spend measuring the angles of random things.

--Shannon

I took the URB out for my first Real Road Ride (tm) today. About 20 miles, from West Dublin BART to Fremont BART. A beautiful, sunny day, great roads, and a new bike. Sounds like a perfect day... and it mostly was. Well-paved back roads, mostly with minimal traffic. Except for one section, the 6-3/4 miles of Pleasanton Sunol Road / CA-84 between Sunol and Fremont. Lots of 45+ mph traffic, and mostly no shoulders to speak of. And there are few things in cycling more demoralizing than making the turn on to a long gradual downhill section... straight into a headwind. So, instead of 8 miles of lazily spinning the big ring at 20+ mph, my old, slow ass spent the whole time churning the small ring at 10. And, to add danger to disappointment, the traffic and no shoulder felt significantly riskier at slow speeds. (I've got no idea if that's true, but it sure feels that way out on the roads.)

I'm still in the process of tweaking the fit, but a new saddle is a fo-sho priority. A real Scranus jackhammerus, that one. I think that a taller stem will be needed, but I'm going to hold off on that until I get some miles in. Right now, it's my shoulders and neck that are feeling it... I have chronic injuries there. They may respond well to more riding... they have in the past, after long times off the bike.

New and cushionier bar tape. Maybe padded Newbaums, or maybe regular cloth tape over the sticky rubber stuff that's on there now. Campandgoslow tapes are cool.

I think the seatpost might be a hair too small. You've got to reef on the pinch bolt, or you get some play. But the pinch bolt itself is a dog's dinner, so I need to replace it anyway. I'll have the shop bust out the seatpost sizing tool, and I'll get a nicer one.

--Shannon

You're a funny person, and I had to check out that magazine, of course.

Additional information about the frame:

Seat tube angle: 71 degrees
Head tube angle: Most likely 72 degrees, but could be as low as 71. It was hard to measure, with the head lugs getting in the way. I ended up using a daily pill container as a standoff straight edge. Those measurements were more consistent, most often 72, so that's what I'm going with.

So, we have these features on the frame:

• 531 tubing, at least in the main triangle.
• Simplex dropouts with a threaded derailleur hanger.
• What look to be stamped lugs, with some thinning and point work. Some file marks. Not top-notch work.
• Chrome fork with flat crown. 531 engraved steerer tube. (Per dude I bought it from.)
• Braze-ons: top tube cable guides, single eyelets front & rear, chain hanger, downtube shifter bosses, (kinda neat looking,) one water bottle. No pump peg.
• What seems to me like a relaxed geometry:
  • 23" / 58 cm CTC seat tube
  • 22.5" / 57 cm CTC top tube
  • 16.5" / 42 cm chainstays w/ wheel all the way back
  • 72 degree head tube angle
  • 71 degree seat tube angle
  • Fits a 700x30 with room to spare. 32s would probably work. (Back then, 32 mm was a touring tire, and 35 was a big touring tire.) A 28 would clear a fender no sweat.

Anyway, that's what I've learned so far.

--Shannon

[QUOTE=ShannonM;23537944 And, to add danger to disappointment, the traffic and no shoulder felt significantly riskier at slow speeds. (I've got no idea if that's true, but it sure feels that way out on the roads.)
New and cushionier bar tape. Maybe padded Newbaums, or maybe regular cloth tape over the sticky rubber stuff that's on there now. Campandgoslow tapes are cool.


--Shannon[/QUOTE]

Some road bikes require a bit of velocity to be quickly and rapidly handled. From my own somewhat briefly differing bike experiences. a shorter wheel base seems to handle better at lower speeds.

Not a fan of padded bar wrap at all. It seems to transmit and intensify an un-necessary amount of road-shock to mostly the wrists. A single layer of cloth tape is far better for me. Heck, even hockey tape works well in this regard.

-D.S.

Looks like a comfortable bike with those measurements. The chainstays seem a bit short, as I would have expected such a frame to be able to accommodate fenders, especially if it were French.

so when you (Shannon) take this to your LBS to find out what size seat post the frame should take, have them use their digital calipers on those main tubes to find out if it's really 531 and more to the point if it's metric or Imperial.
AFAIK all you have to go on is the claim from the seller that the fork's steerer has "531" stamped on it which may well be true but doesn't necessarily apply to the frame itself.

FWIW the rules of thumb are an Imperial seat tube of 531 DB (classic) takes a 27.2 post and if Metric 531 DB takes a 26.4 or 26.6 post

Ironically enough, this is exactly what I came to report today.

I went to the shop to get a lock, and figured I'd see if they had a better seat post binder bolt than the kludged-together stack that was on there when I bought the bike. Since the post had slipped on yesterday's ride, I figured I'd have them check if it was the right size. 26.4. As is the seat lug, according to the seat-post-measuring-stick thingie. So the slippage was a function of the bolt, not the seat post. 7 bucks later, and problem solved.

On a whim, I had him mic the seat tube.

28.1, with paint.

Folks, we've got ourselves a French frame.

That narrows things down considerably.

And, if what I've got is what it seems to be, it's pretty close to being the "French sport-touring bike" that I had in mind when I started the "French Super Course" thread a couple of months ago. This would please me greatly.

--Shannon

A bit more searching has me thinking maybe a 1981 Peugeot PKN-10?

531 DB main tubes, Simplex dropouts, which checks out.
There seems to have been an optional full-chrome 531 fork.
Braze-ons match, at least from a lower-res catalog scan.
And, if that's what this is, then the serial number matches the format given at Classics Rendezvous, as (Y or B)Nxxxxxx. In this case, it's B1025359, indicating a frame built in 1981.

The only confusion is the threading, which is for sure English. He doesn't have any French-threaded parts in his bins, and he built the bare frame up with a generic Taiwan BB and headset.

--Shannon