By the way, the history of the "Ciocc" name is interesting. I was told by an Italian woman many years ago that it's a respelling of a slang term for a good-for-nothing guy who can't keep it in his pants. And I later read an interview with someone at Ciocc who said something like "It's a name you'd call a fun-loving uncle."

For those who didn't know, here's how it's pronounced:

I don't know...if it is Italia, why didn't he spell it "ciocc" instead of "chooch?

I would guess that it's for the same reason that "Italy" is spelled as such in this country and not "Italia" (and that, e.g., Germany is spelled Germany and not Deutschland).

Also, evidently "Ciocc" was either a regional variant spelling or, more likely, simply made up by someone at the bike company who had never seen the word in its spelled-out form (checked, and the, or at least one, correct Italian spelling is "ciuccio").

If you spelt it chooch it would be pronounced "kook" or something like that, which may or may not be appropriate.

Why "if"? It is an American term. "Chooch" is the correct spelling.

it's not "American" or English, it's Bergamo Italian.
Here's a clip of The Man (Giovanni Pelizzoli) Himself pronouncing it---

"It" has been used in the foregoing discussion sometimes to refer to "Ciocc" and sometimes to the Italian American slang term "chooch." Where the former is meant, you're right, of course.

32 replies and still not one pic from the OP

My other Bertoni from the '86ish edition. I had it about two years but never rode it and passed it along.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d7e75df6c8.jpg

This is the Ciöcc I just sold a few days ago.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...360418fc2b.jpg

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...de54d924bf.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...814c989aa1.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9fa1a7cd15.jpg
And the Bertoni I'm preparing to buy.

JochenRindt Great color on that Bertoni

So? Does the Bertoni frame ride differently?

I haven't got it yet. The seller has a lot going on at the moment. He also needs to get the bike ready, which involves a free upgrade to Campy Zonda wheels and 25mm tires, after which he will deliver it. I really like dealing with this seller because when he sells a bike, it truly is 'ready to ride'. He's a retired mechanical engineer and his hobby is restoring/rebuilding high end frames. A few years ago, I bought an '81 Motobecane Le Champion from him, and it was in pristine condition. Still going strong 1300 miles later.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a42ab81758.jpg

The Bertoni was finally delivered yesterday and I took it on a 31 mile ride. It rides beautifully, shifts perfectly, and is plenty stiff. I know Bertoni is a lesser marque than Ciöcc and Matrix is mid grade tubing compared to SL- but I honestly believe it is a better frame than the Ciöcc. It doesn't have that fragile and flexy feeling. I also really like the all Campy components.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b66a64b0ae.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...16f927a5a2.jpg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a3c7006201.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fa8cf8281c.jpg

It's gorgeous.