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Lug ID help
Hiya, hoping someone can ID these lugs. Did the frame builder cut out the diamond-shaped windows? And put glass in the somehow?
Early 80s custom steel bike from the mountains of central Idaho. Pretty neat story. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ab0818572.jpeg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c12e0ae3c.jpeg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0068692da.jpeg |
Having cutouts within lugs was not such an unusual thing, and that’s just paint in there, not glass. Looks like it must be a pretty bike. Would love to see more pics and hear the story behind it.
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Headset spacer is upside down.
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Originally Posted by oneclick
(Post 23571007)
Headset spacer is upside down.
There were a couple of '70s ItalVega models with diamond cutouts in the lugs, possible? All four playing-card suits are popular cutouts in Italian bikes, so this could be from any number of builders large and small. Maybe someone who didn't want to get grief from Colnago (club), DeRosa (heart) or Confente (spade). Brian Baylis had a frame with a club, and Ernesto came up to him at a show, flanked by body guards, and threatened something (I forget, lawsuit?) if Brian didn't stop using his trademark. Brian told him to feck off. I don't remember his exact words but Dale Brown of Classic Rendezvous was present at that moment so he propbably remembers it verbatim. Dale is the most honorable gentleman I know, so this is definitely not an urban legend or exaggeration. |
As to how the windows were made, it was usually a punch. There's a negative of the shape cut through a steel cylinder that goes inside the lug socket, precisely aligned with the positive punch that shears the steel of the lug. I have seen hand-operated, screw-powered punches, but those are slow, so larger-volume makes usually had punches that could be whammed through rapidly. I used one that was foot-powered, punched out our windows in less time than it takes to say "wham". We had a wider window for the DT and a narrower one for the TT and ST lug. The ST also got the wide window punched in back, below the seatpost pinchbolt.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7fd81818f2.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8efab7f5c1.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a300199975.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54e6b66f5d.jpg It took something like one minute total to make all 4 of these windows. Wham wham wham wham! There were also lugs you could buy with the windows in them already, like Prugnat S-4, but using those makes your frame look generic, exact same windows as everyone else. So many builders had their own punches made, to differentiate the product, give them some individuality. Oh right you can also drill one or more holes and then shape them with needle files. At R+E in the early '80s every lug got a trillium flower (3 petals) made with 3 drilled holes and a triangular needle file. We got reasonably fast at that, but it sure wasn't a Wham! Hand-filed windows are very rare due to the time it takes. Even Hetchins' curlicues were stamped out with a punch press. |
Originally Posted by noobinsf
(Post 23570904)
Having cutouts within lugs was not such an unusual thing, and that’s just paint in there, not glass. Looks like it must be a pretty bike. Would love to see more pics and hear the story behind it.
Either way, I’ll share more info and photos soon. |
Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23571052)
As to how the windows were made, it was usually a punch. There's a negative of the shape cut through a steel cylinder that goes inside the lug socket, precisely aligned with the positive punch that shears the steel of the lug. I have seen hand-operated, screw-powered punches, but those are slow, so larger-volume makes usually had punches that could be whammed through rapidly. I used one that was foot-powered, punched out our windows in less time than it takes to say "wham". We had a wider window for the DT and a narrower one for the TT and ST lug. The ST also got the wide window punched in back, below the seatpost pinchbolt.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7fd81818f2.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8efab7f5c1.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a300199975.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54e6b66f5d.jpg It took something like one minute total to make all 4 of these windows. Wham wham wham wham! There were also lugs you could buy with the windows in them already, like Prugnat S-4, but using those makes your frame look generic, exact same windows as everyone else. So many builders had their own punches made, to differentiate the product, give them some individuality. Oh right you can also drill one or more holes and then shape them with needle files. At R+E in the early '80s every lug got a trillium flower (3 petals) made with 3 drilled holes and a triangular needle file. We got reasonably fast at that, but it sure wasn't a Wham! Hand-filed windows are very rare due to the time it takes. Even Hetchins' curlicues were stamped out with a punch press. As I stated above, the windows are translucent. Have you ever heard of someone punching a window in the frame tubes to align with the lugs windows and adding a clear epoxy or other material? Thanks again! |
Originally Posted by DooberD
(Post 23571094)
Wow bulgie, thanks for sharing! Excellent info.
As I stated above, the windows are translucent. Have you ever heard of someone punching a window in the frame tubes to align with the lugs windows and adding a clear epoxy or other material? Thanks again! It's possible, I think, that someone could put a hole in the tube to match up with a hole in the lug but why? It might weaken the frame and even if you expoied some sort of gem in there you run the risk of it falling out and then the frame can get dirt and moisture in it. Others will correct me if I wrong but I believe putting a hole in the lug is not only decorative, and helps identify the builder in some cases, but it aids in getting the solder flow through the joint better. ALso why go to all that trouble and not put a makers mark of some type in the seat stay caps and fork crown? |
Originally Posted by DooberD
(Post 23571094)
Wow bulgie, thanks for sharing! Excellent info.
As I stated above, the windows are translucent. Have you ever heard of someone punching a window in the frame tubes to align with the lugs windows and adding a clear epoxy or other material? |
Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
(Post 23571128)
I see a 531 decal, can you tell us the bottom bracket threading? What size seat post? Anything stamped on the dropouts?
It's possible, I think, that someone could put a hole in the tube to match up with a hole in the lug but why? It might weaken the frame and even if you expoied some sort of gem in there you run the risk of it falling out and then the frame can get dirt and moisture in it. Others will correct me if I wrong but I believe putting a hole in the lug is not only decorative, and helps identify the builder in some cases, but it aids in getting the solder flow through the joint better. ALso why go to all that trouble and not put a makers mark of some type in the seat stay caps and fork crown? https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e3eddeff4.jpeg I will share more about the bike and its story. I just got her from the original owner yesterday and I only replaced the saddle for a quick test ride. Everything is in excellent condition, just gonna replace the hoods, housing, bar tape, and straps. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ba6ba7848.jpeg |
Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23571246)
No, that would be a crazy thing to do, would almost certainly cause rapid frame failure. Whatever you're seeing, it isn't that. I think what you're seeing may be a bit of the ol' trompe l'oeil
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I painted a frame a couple of years ago, and in documenting the process I took some pics of the frame clean, and then painted. The first pic shows how the hole in this case is just in the lug, and you can see the brass braze and a little leftover paint from the media blasting. Then, I later used a paint pen to add the red. I’m certain you would find the same on your frame if you stripped the paint and redid it. (Not that I’m suggesting you do that. I just mean that the builder clearly was trained and experienced, and they would not have punched a hole in the frame tube.)
I think you’re simply seeing the difference between the metallic paint of the frame and the solid paint in the lug cutouts, along with the shiny clear coat. Thanks for the full frame shot. It’s a lovely bike! https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc45f5007.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1c69cc04.jpeg |
Originally Posted by noobinsf
(Post 23571382)
I painted a frame a couple of years ago, and in documenting the process I took some pics of the frame clean, and then painted. The first pic shows how the hole in this case is just in the lug, and you can see the brass braze and a little leftover paint from the media blasting. Then, I later used a paint pen to add the red. I’m certain you would find the same on your frame if you stripped the paint and redid it. (Not that I’m suggesting you do that. I just mean that the builder clearly was trained and experienced, and they would not have punched a hole in the frame tube.)
I think you’re simply seeing the difference between the metallic paint of the frame and the solid paint in the lug cutouts, along with the shiny clear coat. Thanks for the full frame shot. It’s a lovely bike! https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fc45f5007.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f1c69cc04.jpeg |
Originally Posted by noobinsf
(Post 23571382)
I painted a frame a couple of years ago, and in documenting the process I took some pics of the frame [snip]
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Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23571554)
Eisentraut Limited?
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Originally Posted by bulgie
(Post 23571052)
As to how the windows were made, it was usually a punch. There's a negative of the shape cut through a steel cylinder that goes inside the lug socket, precisely aligned with the positive punch that shears the steel of the lug. I have seen hand-operated, screw-powered punches, but those are slow, so larger-volume makes usually had punches that could be whammed through rapidly. I used one that was foot-powered, punched out our windows in less time than it takes to say "wham". We had a wider window for the DT and a narrower one for the TT and ST lug. The ST also got the wide window punched in back, below the seatpost pinchbolt.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7fd81818f2.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8efab7f5c1.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a300199975.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...54e6b66f5d.jpg It took something like one minute total to make all 4 of these windows. Wham wham wham wham! There were also lugs you could buy with the windows in them already, like Prugnat S-4, but using those makes your frame look generic, exact same windows as everyone else. So many builders had their own punches made, to differentiate the product, give them some individuality. Oh right you can also drill one or more holes and then shape them with needle files. At R+E in the early '80s every lug got a trillium flower (3 petals) made with 3 drilled holes and a triangular needle file. We got reasonably fast at that, but it sure wasn't a Wham! Hand-filed windows are very rare due to the time it takes. Even Hetchins' curlicues were stamped out with a punch press. |
Originally Posted by Rick_D
(Post 23571619)
Had a brief "hey, mine doesn't have those" but then I rediscovered them on the fork crown. Two ceremonial whams, awarded.
Cast-in windows, Roto and Bocama respectively : https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...050e175d6b.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2243af36d3.jpg Punched inner tangs: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c7c6e5e6ad.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cfa438cdb2.jpg |
The OP's lugs bear resemblance to some used by both Italvega (Toressini) and Univega (Miyata) but they seem a bit more "finessed" than either of those respected builders usually did to their mass-produced frames.
Now that we know it's made by a small custom USA builder (never heard of a "Galena" before) and of slight interest is that pic of the full frame shows that "Galena" graphics on the down tube used the same font that was used on Univegas (for a period of time in the '80s). Was this builder so smitten by that brand that he was trying to duplicate one by hand? Also wonder why the choice to use Reynolds 501 tubing instead of 531: did the Cro-Mo alloy braze up better than Mang-moly for some builders? |
Where did it say that this frame is Reynolds 501 ?
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Originally Posted by vintage cellar
(Post 23572911)
Where did it say that this frame is Reynolds 501 ?
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Originally Posted by unworthy1
(Post 23572769)
The OP's lugs bear resemblance to some used by both Italvega (Toressini) and Univega (Miyata) but they seem a bit more "finessed" than either of those respected builders usually did to their mass-produced frames.
Now that we know it's made by a small custom USA builder (never heard of a "Galena" before) and of slight interest is that pic of the full frame shows that "Galena" graphics on the down tube used the same font that was used on Univegas (for a period of time in the '80s). Was this builder so smitten by that brand that he was trying to duplicate one by hand? Also wonder why the choice to use Reynolds 501 tubing instead of 531: did the Cro-Mo alloy braze up better than Mang-moly for some builders? |
Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
(Post 23571128)
I see a 531 decal, can you tell us the bottom bracket threading? What size seat post? Anything stamped on the dropouts?
It's possible, I think, that someone could put a hole in the tube to match up with a hole in the lug but why? It might weaken the frame and even if you expoied some sort of gem in there you run the risk of it falling out and then the frame can get dirt and moisture in it. Others will correct me if I wrong but I believe putting a hole in the lug is not only decorative, and helps identify the builder in some cases, but it aids in getting the solder flow through the joint better. ALso why go to all that trouble and not put a makers mark of some type in the seat stay caps and fork crown? |
Builder says they are Guinticicilo lugs. Anyone familiar? Nothing comes up on Google. Perhaps spelling is wrong?
He still has a few that he took some photos of for me: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3a2b24d59.jpeg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...cd8394e68.jpeg He punched out the windows… |
It's Guinticiclo. The lugs on your frame are different; they have longer points for one thing. They could still be Guinticiclo brand in a different, longer-point version, I dunno.
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One more thing I never heard of until now: Guinticiclo lugs!
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