Workmanship Woes...
 

Over the years, a few poorly made bikes have made their way into my little collection of vintage road bikes. The first one that I really noticed as poorly made was this Team Raleigh Record. One chain stay was about 1/4 inch longer than the other...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9199cc2186.jpg

There have been other examples or poor workmanship but it was the decalage on this recently acquired Bottecchia that got me thinking about this again. Not that the frame was poorly made, as was the case with that old Raleigh, but whoever was applying the stickers needs MORE practice and/or an improved work ethic...
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9641ba7cf4.jpg

To that add that the downtube sticker was not centered on the tube. It was also misaligned, same as the seat tube but not as badly...
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c09d3f9a79.jpg

Nor was the Carnellii decal but the wrinkles were present. I can understand getting a long sticky seat tube sticker screwed up. I have done so myself. But how can someone screw up a decal the size of a silver dollar..?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...71defa2a1f.jpg

And, of course, poor workmanship occurs after leaving the factory and reaching some backyard mechanic with too many tools and a complete lack or skill, and/or ethics (my apology for showing this picture again - it is one of my favorites)...
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4c468ee7da.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a33b2868b0.jpg

For what it is worth, I have two sets of long seat tube stickers to apply soon. Fingers crossed...
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ebf1babbb5.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...261df3cbe5.jpg

The residue seems to indicate the decal has been moved at some point?

Likewise on the Bottecchia seat tube decal. It is the victim of bike shop mechanics (including me back then) clamping their repair stand clamps to the down tube decal right where those creases are. I've got a Lambert and a Fuji with the same problems.

So many bikes had stickers on the seat tube that we as mechanics messed up because we were trained to clamp to the seat tube. It is a shame in hindsight.

Good spotting, Velo Mule! That mangled seat tube decal is almost certainly the result of mechanic faux pas! Poor bike. Good it was only the decal that was crimped!

I'm still amazed to see so many videos and pics of bikes clamped by the frame in a repair stand. The most recent one was a Grin electric modification kids to make a tandem an e-tandem. To clamp a tandem frame in a repair stand is almost the worst!

As stated above, the seat tube decal has almost certainly been messed up by clamps, and there's more than enough evidence from the residue to confidently state that the Carnielli decal has either slipped or been replaced.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a33b2868b0.jpg


I roll my eyes when I hear people mention that welding is easy...
It takes a very great deal of practice and constant attention to detail to get sound results, but there are few things in life so satisfying as making a professional level weld on a difficult job.
I can understand why this photo is one of your favorites.

Although Bottecchia's build quality was indeed not that great in the 70's ajd the early 80's, you have to consider that the seat tube decal on the Bottecchia was twisted by a bike repair stand clamp in a bike shop and not at the factory.

I cleaned up a "hand made" 80's Dawes racer a few months ago - just a thrown together no love piece of junk I'm afraid... Dan

That's why I always clamp on a seatpost.

Park makes a tool for this, so you don't need to keep a stock of every size seat post for clamping purposes.
https://www.parktool.com/assets/img/...rged/ISC-4.jpg
https://www.parktool.com/en-us/produ...be-clamp-isc-4

Some good thoughts. For what it is worth, this is how, exactly how, the bike came to me.. Perhaps the water bottle clamp wrinkled the seat tube decal. And, at the same time prevented the shop mechanic from clamping there, Instead, he or she might have clamped the smaller Carnellii sticker, causing it to slide...
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ea36aa7795.jpg

Being that all the decals are askew, maybe the frames were stored in a hot environment at some point?

Still, the downtube sticker could have experienced the same issue - I suppose. Though not to be a humbug, I still feel more care might have been employed.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...92ae185779.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...beb1bc7840.jpg

If that came into the shop that I worked in when I worked there in the early 80's, the clamp would have been placed right over the "BO" in the Bottecchia decal. And if the the water bottle wasn't there it would have been over the "BOTT". This was standard practice with any shop that had a Park Tool work stand. My friend worked in a shop that used a bottom bracket cradle type of stand. At the time I though that was inferior to the Heavy Duty Park stand, but it has it's place and would not have damaged the decal.

If your thinking, "Why didn't you clamp it on the top tube?", it is because there was no groove in the clamp to allow a cable to pass through the clamp pad at that time.

Misalignment
 

In your first photo of the the seat tube you can see the misalignment of the stripes around the back which would have been poor factory workmanship as you said, before the bottle cage clamps.

oh, I recognize this, it's the one from the 3d printing thread a month ago

That Park Tool ISC-4 Internal Seat Tube Clamp gizmo is discontinued and getting pretty close to being Unobtanium. From Park's web page:



Stein tool makes a ver$ion, but it's currently only available in the large (ie, 30.6 - 32mm) size.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...372188a48f.jpg

The shop where I worked from '79 on had a policy of clamping by the seatpost. The only reason I'm sure of that is I remember when a customer took it upon himself to insert his Pinarello's seat tube into a Park stand clamp and heaved the lever shut. Oops. Crushed. Poor guy.

I can't remember the name of the bike manufacturer, but I had an Italian 70's bike boom bicycle that you could put your finger nail with room to spare between the top point of the seat tube lug and seat tube. I didn't see it when I got it and returned it to the shop I got it from for an Olmo that was the flexie-ist frame I've ever ridden. Worse than an Alan even 😂

One shop I worked at had stands that clamped pneumatically. There was a dial to adjust the pressure, and we knew to turn it up for tandems and heavyweights, down for lightweights.

​​​​​​​I was present when we got the first 753 bike in, and the boss insisted on working on it himself. It had been some time since he was a mechanic though, and he forgot about the pressure adjusting knob. You can see where this is going... the bike that was in that stand right before was a heavy vintage tandem. That 753 frame was sold at a steep discount, luckily it was crimped only below where the seatpost has to fit..

Here's one of the ones we made at Davidson, currently owned by Bob Freeman. I forget how many; they weren't for sale but we had a few so we could work on some number of bikes at the same time.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37c6851037.jpg

Here is an example of a decal that has drifted, probably from being hung upside down in a hot attic. Note the the dust on the bottom of the downtube:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...88100c7c2c.jpg
Gravity never sleeps!

That's as crazy as the rocks moving across the desert leaving trails!

There's finishing and then there's workmanship. I classify them differently. You'll deal with both if you look at enough old bikes.

"Finishing" involves a cosmetic issue. Sometimes it's a mistake and sometimes it's just a shortcut at the factory to hasten production. My pair of '47 Raleighs have down tube decals that are a little off-kilter. I've had Schwinns with rough weld or fillet brazed joints. They're complete joints, but not filed down or smoothed well. I'm not bothered by this stuff. It's part of the bike's story from production until the time it finds its way to me and the bike is just as safe and solid to ride as it should be.

"Workmanship" affects the function or safety of the bike. This bothers me much more. I've had bikes with bad fork end joints that needed welding or brazing to fix. I've had wire braces cracked by the riveting press at the factory (again, weld and smooth to fix). I fix them where necessary and worthwhile. Some brands at various times were notorious for issues like this. The later 1960s-80s Westfield/Columbia bikes were notorious for having under-built rear dropout joints, leading the dropout to separate from the stays gradually when ridden.

Pneumatic vises are great since it is easy to set the pressure and therefore the force on whatever it is that is being clamped. I never heard of a one for a bike repair stand, but it is an excellent application. I hope there is an alert if the pressure drops or perhaps a mechanism for keeping the bike clamped if pressure dropped.

SurferRosa is there a version of Pressure Drop you prefer? Toots?

In my previous post were I said that clamping to the seat tube was common practice, I should have also said that we were trained to adjust the clamp not to damage the frame. There is a dilemma, if it is clamped gently, the rubber cushions in the clamp grab the decal and the gentle squeeze allows the bike frame to move in the clamp as you are working on it. This can cause the decal to move or get creased.

I will add that the Park Pro stands were easy to adjust quickly.

SirMike1983 I guess that I might qualify for having looked at and worked on enough old bikes. That said, workmanship is workmanship, and applying stickers, in my mind, is workmanship related but that is just my opinion. As for enough bikes...
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b547d022b1.jpg

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