mrhedges

I found a Old Bottechia with campy parts on craigslist for 100 bux i'm suppose to look at it tomorrow was wondering if thats a good deal if the bike is in good condition. I know Bottechia are italian road bikes and Italian road bikes are suppose to be great. but don't know much else. I'm looking for a new bike to work on for the winter. The post is here https://chicago.craigslist.org/bik/112417958.html.

lotek 

I'm thinking the bike is midrange at best.
The pictures are really not all that clear.
I can't tell what kind of campy stuff.
Record? Gran sport? Valentino (run don't walk away)?
There is a nice bottechia on Classic Rendezvous
https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Italy/Bottechia.htm
which looks similiar to yours.
if it cleans up this nicely 100 bucks isn't bad

T-Mar

The pics aren't great, but it appears to be a mid-1970s Special or Gran Turismo. There's not too much difference between the two, with latter being a quasi-touring version of the former. The main difference is a Valentino Extra versus Gran Turismo rear derailleur. The Special usually also has narrower, half-step gearing.

Both frames are high tensile steel. Hubs should be aluminum, hi-flange, quick release laced to steel rims. The crankset should be a steel, cottered model. Brakes should be Universal 61 center-pull. Bars and stems are likely aluminum Carnielli, which is the factory that manufactured Bottechia.

Personally, while I love vintage, high end, Italian bicycles, I find the entry level models leave a bit to be desired. Aesthetically, they look great, but some of the components are lacking in performance and the fit/mesh of everything. For the era and level, I find the Japanese have the best component performance, the French have the best ride quality and the Italians the best aesthetics. Of course this is a generalization and there are exceptions, so you have to decide what you want the bicycle for.

The Special is basically Bottechia's equivalent of a Peugeot UO8. A good bicycle, but nothing great. Second from the bottom of the line. Original cost in the mid-1970s was about $175 US, depending on the exact year.

mrhedges

thank you for the information. i guess what attracted me to italian bikes is the way they look. i will take what you said into consideration. how can you tell the type of tubing material used if it is not labeled on the frame? columbus is the highest quality italian tubing correct?

cyclezen

with Italians you're never sure sometimes
And were the Bottechia 10 -15 years younger it would prolly be some serious vin-tahge.
There's really nothing wrong with refurbing an entry level Bottechia. Enough are doing the same to Peuguots UO8s, Schwinns, whatever. But its actually more difficult to do, considering how difficult it is to find nice condition parts for that type. You're actually going to have an easier time with a higher end bike and the parts that it might be hung with.
Don't give up, keep lookin and review the bikes the forum guys have posted here. Should give a good comparison. Most importantly, when you do land on one, they're easy to fall in love with and will be sweet ridin steel.
Classic Bikes, unlike infernal combustion veehickels, sacrifice almost nothing to their 'modern' counterparts.

Sigurdd50

I bought this Bottecchia for 10 bucks locally
I have since converted it to fixed/SS
PICS

https://personalpages.tds.net/~mstuartev/

'72 model, bought from original owner
CAmpy Record set (Nervar cranks)
Universal Brakes (Mafac levers)

The frame is nice, light, a bit flexy
The color does look more mid-late 70's
$100 seems a bit hight, like the seller is trying to capitalize on some Italian mojo thing

T-Mar

Yeah, the early and mid 1970s Italian bicycles look great. For most brands, even the entry models had chrome head lugs, fork crowns, stay ends and fork tips. They are hard to resist and give the impression of something expensive. Many cyclists also get excited finding a bicycle with Campagnolo compoents, but not not aware that Campagnolo also made low end components.

The absence of a tubing decal usually indicates a low end, hi-tensile tubest. Columbus was the best Italian tubeset at the time, but Falk also made good tubesets and some Italian builders would use Reynolds 531 on their top models. However, these frames usually have tubing decals, unless they have worn off or it is a repaint. Even if the decal has worn, there are generally some remnants, or at least a visible rectangle of less faded paint.

For most cyclists, the components will tell the level of the bicycle, but if you don't know components or are buying a bare frame, there is a rule of thumb check, applicable for the era, that will tell you if it is a high end model or not. If the rear dropouts are forged and having an integral derailleur hanger, then it almost certainly Columbus or equivalent tubing. Forged dropouts have nice rounded edges and slightly raised flats for the clamping of the quick release shewers. The cheaper, stamped dropouts have sharp edges and look like they were cut from a piece of flat metal using a cookie cutter. The integral derailleur hanger is usually found only on forged dropouts and consists of a short arm below the right dropout, which the derailleur bolts onto. The cheaper, stamped dropouts usually do not have an integral hanger. Instead, the derailleur has a claw which is held onto the back of the wheel slot, using a nut and bolt.

In, addition, if the dropouts have Campagnolo stamped on them, that's further confidence of a good tubeset. The final proof is a peek into the bottom of the fork's steerer tube. A Columbus tubeset will have six helical ridges.

Another rule of thumb for Italian frames of the era is the rear brake cable routing. Most entry level models used brazed-on cable stops, while the top models used cable clips. However, there are more exceptions to this rule than the dropout check, which is the preferred method.

Things start getting a little more difficult in the late 1970s and 1980s when forged, integral dropouts start appearing on mid range models and Columbus started manufacturing different grades of tubesets. But if it's Italian, has lots of chrome and forged dropouts with an integral derailleur hanger, then it is most likely a high end, boom era model.

For instance, check out Sigurdd50's frame. It has all the chrome and in the pic of the rear wheel you can see the integral derailleur hanger. What he has is either a Professional or Giro d'Italia model with Columbus tubing, though an original Nervar crankset suggests the latter.

Sigurdd50

T-Mar is a wealth of information. He returns the romantic aspect (metaphorically speaking) back to cycling history. I love to pour over an old 'thing' and learn little details of the past. Thanks!

on a sorta silly side note, vaguely 'PC' but worth mentioning anyway... T-Mar said
I studied writing and english, and in one my workshop sections, after a student's comment, the instructor illuminated the class on one interpretation of the phrase 'rule of thumb'

simply put:
Rule of Thumb (as, unfortunately written in some 17th-19th century legal texts) states that a husband may discipline his wife with a stick as long as it is no thicker than the thickness of his thumb.

Whether you believe this or not (and I wouldn't hold it against the user)... I have elected to remove the phrase from my daily use

And thus ends today's partially useful history and english lesson

T-Mar

Egads!!! I did not know that! Please accept my apologies now. Hopefully, the censors will not turn this into another Farrah post.

On the other hand, thank-you for the compliment. Oops, was that another faux pas? Let me guess, "on the other hand" is another outdated, legal phrase whereby a teacher could only punish school children by striking them on their non-writing hand! Joe, please tell me it ain't so!

Sigurdd50

(I tried to state is lightly so fret not)


no, I believe, according to 15th century legal texts from Dirka-Dirkastan literature, this is simply a phrase that emphasizes the curious dichotomy of lost goat herders in an already donkey-centrist world... the fable goes "imagine the picture of a poor man, hands held out, a map of Dirka-Dirkastan on one palm, and grease from last night's goat burger on the other... when a lost soul is looking for directions, looks at his greasy hand, the poor man exclaims, "no! no! on the other hand"

[IBID: papyrus 113, Ch III, vs XXII Book of Bull Poot]

luker

'rule-of-thumb' derives from wood workers (or other constructors) who knew their trade so well they rarely or never fell back on the use of such things as rulers. Instead they'd measure things by, for example, the length of their thumb; they measured, not by a rule(r) of wood, but by rule of thumb. The term was already in
metaphorical use by the late 17th century.

T-Mar, of course, knows his ***** well enough that "rule of thumb" has appropriate meaning here.

On-topic content: even though it is only 34 degrees F, I am taking the afternoon off to ride a 1977 Trek TX900. So there.

Sigurdd50

after doing a bit of googling I found that it does indeed have dual meanings

see:
https://research.umbc.edu/~korenman/w...leofthumb.html

I'm not so PC that I hold it against others who use it... just interesting, AND another example of a phrase we use and do not know the phrase's entire historical significance.
Personally, if the second derivation is true (and it appears to be), I elect to remove it from my vocabulary with due respect to the 51+% of the population that might find it offensive.

so that's about enuf off topic

now get me the hell out of work cause I have pies to bake!

FarHorizon

I'd buy that bike for $100 if it were local to me! The neat frame with the chrome lugs is almost worth the money IMHO. The cheap Bottecchia's I got to assemble in a LBS where I worked back in college didn't have Campy on them. The cheap ones had Simplex, if I remember correctly. If this bike had the Campy as original equipment, it was at LEAST a mid-range model. This reinforces my "buy" recommendation.

lotek 

I have a headache after reading that. . .
I'm going to use the measurement definition and keep it in my vocabulary,
I can't get into the whole apologistic thing. . .I wasn't around in 16th century
England, I don't beat my wife, and its not true!

(donning nomex suit)

marty

luker

My master carpenter threatened to beat me with my "ruler" the one time that I called that 6 foot folding thingie made of wood (that is still in my carpenter's belt) as a ruler. He convinced me in about 250 milliseconds that it has always been, is, and will always be, a RULE. Rulers are what a school marm beats unruly children with (in his words), putting an odd twist to the whole "beating" thing.

Luk "I don't beat my wife, she'd hurt me" er

luker

okay, so I blew my budget on bike stuff, and have to avoid eBay. So, junkie that I am, I tried to research the "Rule of Thumb" thing some more - I looked at several threads in places like alt.fem and found...confusion. One person insisted on legal precedents, citing US laws. When I researched these, I couldn't find any reference to the expression, or wife-beating, at all. Apparently, the phrase has been hijacked by the debaters, and it is now tainted (good thing that my master carpenter is dead, he liked it and used it a lot.) I'll probably continue to use it, as I am old and cranky and set in my ways, but you are probably right - it stirs up too much negative sentiment...

T-Mar

The Simplex equipped model was the De Luxe. The Special was the next model up and used the same hi-tensile frame, but with cosmetic differences. Components were identical, except for the use of Valentino derailleurs and the incorporation of quick release skewers on the Special. The Valentino derailleurs, though Campagnolo, were low end. They were comparble to Simplex's Prestige and the only real advantage of the Valentino was reliability, due to the all-metal construction. Like the Prestige, it used a push rod, front derailleur, which was very outdated by the mid-1970s.

Technically, the Special could be considered a mid range model, given that it was not the lowest or highest model in the line. While there is no specific definition for a mod-range bicycle, I have a hard time considering a 1970s bicycle to mid range when it has; 1) a high tensile, plain gauge frame, 2) steel cottered cranks, and 3) steel rims.

Now, this is not to say that the bicycle is not worth the asking price. This will depend on the cosmetic and mechanical condition condition, the local market prices and the buyer's personal criteria. However, potential buyers should be aware of what they are purchasing.

mrhedges

ya i think i'm just going start looking around at bikes at local thrift stores my friend got a low end raleigh road bike for 6 bux at salvation army. i would atleast considering my limited funds be better off spending a 100 bux on a bike stand and tools. by the way i've always thought rule of thumb refered to the orginal system of measurement in england before the enlightment era standarized a system of measure. back then if you wanted say a lenth of cloth you would go down to the local market and tell the vendor you wanted say 10 thumbs of cloth and the vendor would measure out ten thumbs using his thumb. perhaps i'm wrong but if you guys could keep your eyes open for a decent quality steel road bike my measurement is about 56 thumbs.

mike

There is a lot of nostalgia about the Italian bikes. I won't speak to that because the mystique of Italian bikes hasn't hit me yet.

I will speak of the machine itself, however. I had two Bottechia. I sold one reconditioned for $150. The other I gave away to a friend who needed transportation

They were "OK", I guess. The problem I had with them is that I weigh over 200 lbs and am pretty strong.

The Bottechia frames would bend/twist with every strong pedal stroke. This was disturbing. First, of course, you lose confidence in the frame when it twists. Second, I knew that I was wasting energy with all that twisting.

I also have a Benotto frame which I like quite a lot more. It seems a bit stronger than the Bottechia.

boozergut

Many of my homebrew books talk about rule of thumb originating before the days of thermometers. After the beer wort was boiled and hops were added, the wort was left to cool prior to adding the barm (yeast). The thumb was periodically dipped into the cooling wort to determine when to add the yeast.