jstewse

Picked this up earlier today, a Sport Dlx, must be late 80's. Tange Infinity frame, 700c and indexed Shimano Exage.
Couldn't find a serial number though.


Centurion Sport Dlx by jstewse, on Flickr


Centurion Sport Dlx by jstewse, on Flickr

Roger M

VIN: N6H3002

1986 Ironman - 48cm

RobbieTunes

Two clean machines. Surely the sun never sets on Centurions...

horatio 

Robbie, any idea of how many Ironman bikes were built during their production run? Were the serial numbers serial, i.e. did they reflect the production count?

RobbieTunes

No clue. Lower volume production run in '85, as the Comp TA was rebadged.

The expensive productions of the '83-'84 Turbo, '85 Cinelli-made Equipe and high-end Prestige, which didn't sell all that many units, tended to keep Centurion conservative.

'86's Ironman saw two things happen: increased sales, especially of the red/white, and even higher units sold of the Elite, which was cheaper and Tange 2. This continued with the '87 model year, probably the most Ironman bikes sold that year, but were outpaced by the Lemans and Lemans RS at $200-$300 cheaper.

'88 and '89 saw more sold than '86, I'd bet, with the tricolor group and Dave Scott continuing his success on Wide World of Sports. At the same time, the Lemans and Lemans RS continued to roll out of shops when buyers couldn't pay the Ironman price.

I got this info a little while ago from a bike shop that sold Centurions. They didn't discount Centurions one cent, but sold a ton because the other brands didn't have the component levels for the price. The shop owner also told me that when the '87's came out with the Expert and the 105 group, the local tri-guys showed up with the cash. He said he sold Experts 4-1 over Masters until '88 and '89, and then it was more like 2-1.

Most people don't remember, but $50 and a group difference could make or break a bike's success back then.

horatio 

IIRC, when I bought my Nishiki Olympic for $300 in 1988, Ironman Experts were going for $650-$700 or so. Does that jibe with your recollections?

My best friend at the time had an '87 red-white Expert. I loved the look of that bike (still do). I chose a blue-white Nishiki color scheme over the red-white because I didn't want it to appear I was copying him. The Nishiki is well-made and generally comfortable to ride, but the frame flexes too much at the bottom bracket. Have not had that issue with the Ironman.

RobbieTunes

That is right. My roommate and I went in to get Ironman bikes. He ordered his for $698, a yellow-white 87 Expert he still has, and he had to pay extra for white Looks. I walked out with a very slightly used Trek 510 for $350, bummed to the max. That shop is still there, and I've not doubt they'd service the bike if he asked them to. He's had it hanging in his garage, and after two sweeps by local burglars, the Ironman is still there, and the Wal-Mart bikes have been stolen twice.

rothenfield1

Those Wal-Mart bikes are 'tits' man…show’s what you know old-timer.

xn7

stepped out of the house today and within 2 minutes saw a pretty pristine old lemans 12 ride by. went to the post office, stepped out and 2 minutes later a pink-purple/yellow ironman whizzes by

pretty cool day.

on a sadder note, i think my lemans is a little too big for me. feel a little stretched out.

and although i thought it was a 52cm (20.5 inch).. from my past measurements.. i must have been bad at measuring because now i think its a 54cm.. explains why i'm feeling a bit uncomfortable on it i guess.. sure looks like a 54cm now that i use my brain

RobbieTunes

Always room for n+1

T-Mar

The serial numbers do not relfect the production run for a model. They reflect the production for the factory. Centurion was a contract manufactured bicycle, so there are other brands included in the count. Centurion production was also spread to multiple factories, based on price level. About all you can say, based on serial numbers, is that the factory where the Ironmen were built had a maximum capacity of about 260,000 bicycles per year in the late 1980s.

While I can believe the discount statement, the value statement is not true. For any given model/year there were comparable competitors at the same price. What Centurion had that the others didn't, were the Ironman and Dave Scott's endorsements. That's what really sold the model and trickled down to the others in the line.

horatio 

A shorter stem might help with the fit.

Or, you could take Robbie's suggestion (N+1).

xn7

n+1? count me in!

saw another black/yellow lemans rs today! so many centurion's here in downtown los angeles.

guess i'll be looking out for a shorter stem. i think the stock one is 90mm.. so i'll be looking for a 80mm..22.2 with 25.4 clamp? sound about right for a 87 lemans?

RobbieTunes

I also have a 27.2 zero-setback seatpost. There are SR's and others out there from 70-80 mm that will make a difference. Between the two, you can shave off 2-4cm.

xn7

hadn't thought about the zero setback seatposts.. yeah looks like i can save about 1cm.. took a look at my seatpost just now, it's stamped 27.0!

jacbo

Okay I've got one for you guys.

I picked up someone's old Tri-bike at the Goodwill for $10. It was completely repainted. Not a decal, headbadge or 80's paint scheme to be found. It's a hodge-podge of some pretty decent parts (Sugino crankset, newer dia-compe brakes, Higher end Shimano derailleurs). After I little forum sleuthing I'm pretty settled on it being a Dave Scott Ironman. Lugging, dropouts, geometry all look the same. It even has that little "nipple" on the fork tube that I've only seen on these bikes.

Problem is, the serial number (N4E7891) dates it as an '84. From what I've seen the earlier Ironman bikes lack this little nipple on the fork tube. The earliest resemblance I've seen was an '86 bike. Now this bike very well could be an '85 model year, but from the serial number, '86 would be stretching it.

Opinions? I'll try to get a picture of the area I'm talking about.

RobbieTunes

We'll need the pictures, and then we can all run out to our bikes to have a comparison look-see.
One thing to keep in mind, is that the frame appearance, sans decals and identifiable paint, is somewhat generic for the time period.

Minus the decals, you probably couldn't tell an Elite from a Lemans from a Comp TA from an Ironman, or a Prestige or Turbo, for that matter, if the chrome was painted over. Other than geometry, they look very similar with no markings. Compound that with nearly identical Panasonics, Nishikis, Shoguns, and boy it can be hard to decipher.

That's my opinion before photos. The serial number is a really good indicator, especiall if it's letter for letter, digit for digit. The '84 Lemans RS did have DC brakes and a Sugino crankset, but had Suntour derailleurs and shifters. Any combination of the components, or all, could have been OEM or replacements.

Figuring it out is half the fun. Some of us could likely tell by riding it, what it rides like or not like, but only when sober.

jacbo

I'm thinking it's one of deez guise https://sheldonbrown.com/centurion198...08elite-rs.jpg

A lot of the color-matched, anodized parts I thought were upgraded look to be the original components. The thing that really identifies the frame, in my mind, is the single shifter braze on and Suntour symmetric shifters VS the typical tube-mount shifters common on the other bikes.

I'm starting to believe the "LOOK AT ME" red color may be the original finish, as well, just judging by quality and texture.

Things I am almost certain of:
Definitely an '84 Centurion
Definitely Tange tubing
Original Bronze anodized dia-compe "400" brakes/matching levers, Bronze anodized Araya 27x1 wheel (rear is some crappy 700c > ), Sugino AS crankset with Bronze anodized 52 tooth crank.
Suntour Symmetric single braze on, self adjusting shifters

T-Mar

+1, pictures are mandatory in this situation. With that serial number, it's definitely a 1984 model. If the Shimano derailleurs are SIS, they're definitely an upgrade. It's almost certainly not a Turbo or Comp TA as the dozen or so that have popped up from this era, were all manfactured in a different factory (i.e. similar though different serial number format). Given the lack of decals, you can't even assume it's a Centurion. These bicycles were contract manufactured in a 2nd party factory that would have manufactured several, perhaps dozens, of brands including Centurion.

RobbieTunes

I can add only a little to T-Mar's info. The 1984 Lemans RS had Tange Infinity tubing, the "piggy-back" Suntour shifters, DC brakeset, and Sugino crankset. It didn't have anything Shimano on it, as far as I know. As far as I know, no bronze-anodized components on that model; doesn't mean there weren't any.

There is an '84 catalog out there. The '84 Turbo carried a bronze-anodized DC brakeset and a bronze-anodized 52t chainring on a Sugino Aero Mighty crankset. I figure if your bike was an '84 Turbo, you'd be talking about the chrome under the paint, which it has. It also came in a dark red with silver head tube. The seat stay caps, dropouts, and R chain stay would be polished chrome. It was a 700c bike with Suzue bronze-hubs.

I can't speak to the frame, but I know the components a bit better. I can't tell you if it was Tange or not, unless you have a decal, or even Suntour, but at the very least, it sounds like a good bike with good components either OEM or upgraded. If there was a huge database of OEM frames and OEM components, I'm sure a cross-reference could get you close, if it was OEM. It sounds like a bike person owned it and maintained it for a while, but the mixing of 700c and 27" is odd.

realestvin7

I had an '84 Nishiki International that had Suntour Symmetric shifters...

abarth

Scozim just dropped off an 58cm Ironman frame set for me. The serial number is N4P0072. So it was build in 84, and probably sold as an 85 model. My question is, does the early Ironman has the same frame geometry as the later Ironman?

T-Mar

In a nutshell, no. Just about everything changed over the course of the 5 year run of this model (as a Centurion). Your 58cm should have parallel 74 degree angles. Eventually, the head tube got slightly steeper and the seat tube got shallower. The wheelbase and top tube length shrank slightly over the years. Fork rake and bottom bracket height also decreased. The only thing that appears to have remained constant was the chainstay length.

RobbieTunes

+1

They got a bit edgier, in my opinion. I think you'll find the '85 a bit smoother.

"bit" = very little.

T-Mar

An interesting, and not inappropriate, choice of words.